ASoFaI - "It's all sex and death"

Brian G Turner

Brian G Turner

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So my girlfriend just finished the Earthsea series by Ursula Leguin and was bored for something to read.

So I recommended "A Game of Thrones".

She's just past the incident on the road to Kings Landing involving Arya, the butchers boy, and Sansa's wolf, and her comment was:

"It's all sex and death".

She complained that so far its just men shagging and little real substance from a female perspective, and that GRRM is appealing to people's baser instincts with sometimes plain sensationalism.

Her final comment was: "It's just a celebration of death, but Earthsea was a celebration of life, and was a balance of male and female views".


Anyway...there's a dicussion starter for you all. :)
 
She may be right, to some extent, but I'm not sure it's a male/female thing. First and foremost, I'd downplay the importance of sex in the books. It's there, yes, but not in a sense that all/most characters are obsessing about it. Sex is more used as a minor tool to move the plot forward (and you can say that about a lot of other things in the books as well: age, social status, weather, food, etc.). If it were truly male dominated, then all the characters major decisions would hinge on the quest for sex, as most males are wont to do. :)

Death looms big in the plot, but let's face it - it is an epic about war and all the disgusting political plottings that accompany it.
 
I don't think it's a female thing - I loved the books and would be perfectly happy to have read them without the female viewpoints...

They do take some time to get into if you've just finished reading something totally different, as I imagine Earthsea was...
 
I wouldn't say Earthsea was particularly a celebration of life, there is a fiar amount of death and evil within it.
It tends to revolve more around the activities of the characters ino than the characters around a grand plot design.
 
Actually, I would say that my experience is that ASOIAF is a series that's much more popular with women readers than, say, Wheel of Time, Sword of Truth, or Malazan. It's also much more appealing to older readers, too, I think largely for the same reasons.

The things that really matter in ASOIAF are the relationships between the characters: what they feel is more important than the 'quest'. The sex and death is there, yes, because it is a series written for adults, and GRRM doesn't flinch from them. But he doesn't revel in them either, like Goodkind does. There are no lengthy, detailed, lovingly described torture/rape scenes, for example.

Based on what she's read so far, it seems a weird conclusion to reach. Were the first two Catelyn chapters written from a 'male view', for example? I would advise her to read on. There is more to the series than sex and death.

It seems a strange classification anyway: I mean, I liked Earthsea, but I couldn't even now identify which bits reflect a 'male view' and/or a 'female view'. I can see the argument that something ike Malazan is written from a 'male view', but ASOIAF?
 
My own take is that the books are a very elaborate meidiaevelist soap opera, certainly well-researched and sophisticated as fantasy series go. So yea, sex and death, I guess. And politics.
 
You tend to hear this amongst the few ASoIaF detractors out there. "It's all sex and death" or "GRRM is a pervert". This is absolute garbage, In my book.

Some people might be genuinely offended, but most are merely shocked that they are reading a work of fantasy by an author who refuses to go by the safe fantasy formula. Let's face it, most fantasy seems aimed at a Young adult readership. Well, I'm over 30 and I want to read about adults acting like adults. Yes, this means a sprinkling of sexual content... because this is an important aspect of human existence. GRRM shows EVERYTHING. This is part of the reason why he's my favorite.
 
Tsujigiri said:
Se, death and politics....add corruption and we'd have a fantasy medievel tabloid....
Click to expand...

Oh, don't worry, there's corruption as well...:D

Lord of Winterfell...I couldn't agree more...The thing that was putting me off fantasy before I ran across this series was the whole adolescence of it...The soppy friendships, the 'I can be injured but wll win out in the end' heroes...I'm missing a smile which is banging its head on a wall :D
 
The book is very true to life and since life is largely about sex and death it stands to reason that the book contain a significant amount of sex and death. When you boil down something complex with a gross generalization you can create a misconception. The beauty of the book lies in the interaction of the characters and the points of view used. So, you could say the book is all about relationships. This would be equally inaccurate but just as truthful.

As far as the woman thing goes. My wife likes ASoFaI almost as much as I do. Her favorite author is still Octavia Butler. As a side note Butler beat Martin's Clash of Kings for the Nebula in 1999 with Parable of the Talents.
 
Well, once the characters moved to Kings Landing she's become a lot more interested - if I remember right it can be pretty disorientating at the start because there are so many characters to cover, and she also has difficult jumping straight from one author to another, not least due to change of writing styles.
 
Raven said:
Actually, I would say that my experience is that ASOIAF is a series that's much more popular with women readers than, say, Wheel of Time, Sword of Truth, or Malazan. It's also much more appealing to older readers, too, I think largely for the same reasons.
Click to expand...

Its odd you should say that, I started reading AGoT when I was 13 (right after ACoK came out), and I could tell immediatly that it was one of the best books I'd ever read. I do believe I got bit more out of it the second time I read it 2 years later, but I think that applies to any person and any book.
ASoIaF is as you say, more based on the relationships between characters than plot or "quest". But why would this mean it is more appealing to one gender/age than to another? Everyone has relationships and so everyone can relate.
 
I would guess it's pretty hard for a man to write well from a female perspective, I've never really tried... but at least half the PoV characters are female, aren't they?

I don't want to insult you're girlfriend's taste in books, Brian, but aSoIaF is so far above LeGuin quality wise it may be difficult to adapt, like you said;)
 
There are only four female PoV's in the books so far...Catelyn, Arya, Sansa and Dany...I think he's going to drop Catelyn for obvious reasons :D, Cersei is in the next book definitely, but I think the male PoV's are more numerous...Tyrion, Eddard (ex), Bran, Jon, Davos, Jaime, Theon...
 
I don't want to insult you're girlfriend's taste in books, Brian, but aSoIaF is so far above LeGuin quality wise it may be difficult to adapt, like you said
Click to expand...

I am sorry to be this blunt, but that is absolute errant rubish. Martin may well be the best writer in epic fantasy today (hardly a sterling achievement), but he is a pygmy with a typewriter compared to the authoress of works like The Disposessed, The Left Hand of Darkness, The Word for World is Forest and that most excellent of short stories, The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas. I'm sorry, a knack for complications and the ability to write better than NoGoodkind still don't place him in LeGuin's league. Uh-huh. LeGuin has wisdom, and something to say about the human condition.
 
Fair enough JP. I personally hated LeGuin with a passion. I thought the writing was horrible, but I'm perfectly prepared to accept I may be in the minority with that opinion:)
 
Hmm, I don't know if I would rate LeGuin above or below Martin. Martin is my personal fave, but I think they're probably both around the same level in terms of good writing.

'Pygmy with a typewriter' in comparison to LeGuin? That's as much errant rubbish as saying Martin is hugely better than LeGuin, IMO. Two wrongs don't make a right. Three lefts do. ;)

Martin has said that he struggles to write the younger POVs, but he has never admitted to any difficulty with the female POVs. True, there are fewer of them. But there are also many well-written and/or important female non-POV characters - Melisandre, Brienne, the Queen of Thorns, Margaery, Selyse, Shireen, Lysa, Jeyne Westerling, Asha Greyjoy, Myrcella, Ellaria Sand, Ygritte, Mya Stone, Mirri Maz Duur, Dalla, and Old Nan, for example. (At least two of those will almost certainly be POVs in the next book, by the way.)

Martin has also hinted that we are likely to see more important female characters introduced - Genna Frey, the Sand Snakes, and Arianne Martell are all likely to feature. And then there are the female characters who don't appear, but cast a shadow over events - Joanna Lannister, Ashara Dayne, and Lyanna Stark, for example.

And hi to Brood! (it's mormont from SE, by the way).
 
Heya mormont:) nice to see you again, I'm afraid I've been less than punctual in my monthly visit to SE of late;)

Welcome to the network too, though I imagine you've had that already:cool:
 
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