Halfway through book 3 and SoIaF is losing me...

[Boaz]

Kith, thank you. You may want to check out the last quote I put forward on the Who Said That? thread (bottom of page 57) because it jives with your avatar.

simply because GRRM is WAY to masterful to deliver us a straight forward hero

rik, I hope you are right. I'd love for Jon to turn out to be Frodo and not Belgarion. Martin has not given us straightforward villains, so why stop there?

 

[Shacklock]

Oh god no! Not another Frodo, Harry Potter and Frodo, two main characters I loath xD

As to the person that said they prefer 300-400 pagers, HOW?! Problem for me with them is that I always feel like I've wasted money or something when I've read such short books in a day or two. Plus you can never really get -that- attached to the characters like you can with a huge book.

And yes, that other post was meant to be vaugely crptic, everyone thats read up to AFFC will know who I'm talking about and nodoubt agree? xD

 

[The Imp]

First off i believe if you reread the series you will see how awesome this series is and how much of the overarching plot you have missed. SOIF is for me an interesting read about the struggle in the game of thrones across westeros which leads to inevetiable fight with the others (overarching plot etc etc ).

Secondly, (this kinda relates to point 1 and also clearly my opinion/view/feeling) GRRM has a far bigger vision than you believe as you read through the first few books but towards the end of AFFC you get a sense of that.

THirdly point 1+2 explain why so many people think this story is awesome and why so many have been waiting for years for ADWD

Finally, on a different tangent i disagree boaz -jon wont become THE HERO although he'll be one because of where he is and what he must do. He will be the bloke who suffers as he will do Wat must be done not what he wants to do. Remember that bittersweet ending GRRM talked about well jones going to be a very big part of that but he wont be THE HERO like you say

As someone who is now wrapping up my second reading of the 4 books I wholeheartedly agree. In my second go round I was able to see detail and connections that were impossible to discern in my first reading. Things that came as total shocks the first time- Joff's demise, The Red Wedding, seemed almost obvious if you read the "clues" Martin dropped while leading up to the events. Reading GRRM for a second time is like watching a great magician do a trick and then explain how it's done. Truly awe inspiring

 

[Wiggum]

Two things:

1) MS&T is bad. Not really bad, but it's painful to read a second time. There's two other series that I love (Dragonlance and the Edding's books), that are also really bad, but at least they don't cloak their badness by using a mutlisyballic verb to cover up the ho-yay of the quality of the writing. Weiss, Hickman and Eddings are shallow right out of the gate and don't apologize. I'm not sure if any of the three could spell deus ex machina properly, but they know what one is.

2) Jon is awesome. He might even be, dare I say it, hella cool.

 

[Shacklock]

As someone who is now wrapping up my second reading of the 4 books I wholeheartedly agree. In my second go round I was able to see detail and connections that were impossible to discern in my first reading. Things that came as total shocks the first time- Joff's demise, The Red Wedding, seemed almost obvious if you read the "clues" Martin dropped while leading up to the events. Reading GRRM for a second time is like watching a great magician do a trick and then explain how it's done. Truly awe inspiring

Only your second time? *Grin*
SOIAF is one of those series I can rearead at least once a year. Not sure how many times i've got through the first three books now.

 

[The Imp]

Only your second time? *Grin*
SOIAF is one of those series I can rearead at least once a year. Not sure how many times i've got through the first three books now.

Back when I could read print books I'd read stuff like Tolkien or King's Dark Tower series once a year (books 1-4 of the DT). It's harder now because of how long it takes to listen to a book

 

[TK-421]

GRRM has really blown it with me with the delays to AFfC, and the ongoing delay to ADwD...I feel that to give ADwD a fair chance, I'd now have to read the whole thing from the beginning again - and frankly, I haven't the time or the inclination to do that...

OH well, your loss.

Rolynd: Wait until you get to the end of ASOS. The biggest shock of the series is yet in store for you and when you will be reading it, you will be saying to yourself "This isn't happening!!!" You may need a very stiff drink afterwards and maybe some reassurance from someone

 

[soulsinging]

Oh god no! Not another Frodo, Harry Potter and Frodo, two main characters I loath xD

As to the person that said they prefer 300-400 pagers, HOW?! Problem for me with them is that I always feel like I've wasted money or something when I've read such short books in a day or two. Plus you can never really get -that- attached to the characters like you can with a huge book.

And yes, that other post was meant to be vaugely crptic, everyone thats read up to AFFC will know who I'm talking about and nodoubt agree? xD

I like a good story. My first reading love was the Hardy Boys books as a kid, and I have a deep love for a good hard-boiled detective novel. I'm a fan of the plot as much as the characters usually, and like to feel like I'm moving towards something most of the time. I guess it's kind of Shakespearean... the rising action, climax, and resolution. I like that rhythm of being lost in a story and wondering where it will go.

But I also like to know it will get there. That was my problem with WoT (and also, coincidentally, why I loved it so much at first... it seemed to be racing towards that last battle before it got derailed), and it's my problem with ASoIaF so far. It's why MS&T was disheartening... even people that love it generally admit that it was far longer than it needed to be, and using 3000 pages to tell a story that only requires 1500 and repeats itself often is not appealing to me.

On top of that, I'm currently in law school and have so much reading for classes that I like a pleasant diversion, something with an exciting pace and an ending that is firm. It's a good balance to the eternal moral ambiguity of the law. Plus, it's tough to find time to read, so when I have 15 books on my shelf, I like to feel like I'm getting somewhere. It can take me a month to finish a big epic hunk of work I feel guilty enough reading for leisure when I know I have coursework I'm neglecting. It helps to have it be something exciting and escapist that I can feel I made progress by finishing. Sometimes the long epics end up feeling like an extra assignment!

Which is why now that I'm on winter break, I plan to dive into SoS while I have plenty of time to immerse in it! Plus, very appropriate to read in the thick of a midwestern winter!

Maybe once I graduate this spring and have a bit more free time, I'll be more apt to slow my pace down and enjoy a good epic.

 

[Clansman]

Gee, Soulsinging, perhaps you should pick up some Steven Erikson and lighten your load. Good luck on law school. Work load sounds about the same since I was there (pssst. It gets harder after you leave and actually start being a lawyer!).

 

[Rosemary]

I enjoyed the first volume,then half of the next one and by that time I wasn't enjoying it one little bit. I liked the medieval feel to it at least. GRRM writes well but the storyline seemed to go astray somehow. I wish I could explain exactly what I mean

I did return for a second read but that didn't help. So, I shall be donating the books to the library.

 

[Pyan]

As to the person that said they prefer 300-400 pagers, HOW?! Problem for me with them is that I always feel like I've wasted money or something when I've read such short books in a day or two. Plus you can never really get -that- attached to the characters like you can with a huge book.

I don't know, though - I've just read all the Dresden Files that are out, and even though each one is only 300-400 pages, over a ten book series that's three times the length of LotR, and you get to know Jim Butcher's characters pretty well

 

[soulsinging]

Gee, Soulsinging, perhaps you should pick up some Steven Erikson and lighten your load. Good luck on law school. Work load sounds about the same since I was there (pssst. It gets harder after you leave and actually start being a lawyer!).

The Erikson comment was a joke right? I've heard about him...

Thanks! I'm close to done. I hear firm life is pretty hectic, but I think I'll be alright. I'll just be happy to have a kind of work/play division. Any time I'm home now I think about studying I should be doing.

 

[soulsinging]

Two things:

1) MS&T is bad. Not really bad, but it's painful to read a second time. There's two other series that I love (Dragonlance and the Edding's books), that are also really bad, but at least they don't cloak their badness by using a mutlisyballic verb to cover up the ho-yay of the quality of the writing. Weiss, Hickman and Eddings are shallow right out of the gate and don't apologize. I'm not sure if any of the three could spell deus ex machina properly, but they know what one is.

2) Jon is awesome. He might even be, dare I say it, hella cool.

You're not alone there. I started MS&T and just couldn't get into it. I'd been told it was slow at first, but that the writing was great and it was worth sticking with it. The writing drove me nuts too though, so I bailed and opted to plow onward in George Martin.

 

[Gambit]

Jon is awesome. He might even be, dare I say it, hella cool.

Ha ha well put Wiggum. For me Jon's the character I hate to love, even though I don't want another stock hero fantasy novel. I kinda wanna see Jon succeed, and that's bad news for him. Martin loves toying with reader emotions (ask Ned). I think he's a great character in the classic fantasy sense, which I hate because I don't see a place for the classic hero in Martins world...

That being said, Jon is hella cool.

 

[Boaz]

Oh god no! Not another Frodo, Harry Potter and Frodo, two main characters I loath

Frodo is neither Gandalf nor Aragorn. He's not powerful. He's not magical. He has neither a connection to divinity nor legions he can call to pave his way. He's not royalty. He's not slick nor sleek. He's not sexy in any way. But Frodo perseveres through tribulation.

It can be argued that all heroes persevere, but in my opinion most are too young to appreciate the sacrifices they're making and too young to really be afraid of failing. Frodo is fifty years old when he sets out for Rivendell. He fully knows he may never come back. He's casting away his chances for love and a family.

In the end, Aragorn, Belgarion, and I suspect Rand al'Thor all sit enthroned in power and showered in love. Frodo retires to obscurity with severe physical ailments. He gave his all and was only respected for it by a select few.

The example of Frodo is to do what is right. It did not matter that Frodo knew of the prophecy of the Halfling. He was beset by traitors, spies, undead, and the Dark Lord all bent upon his failure. He just had to do what was right... what was entrusted to him day by day. That was his power. He could not use Anduril. He did not have the Horn of Gondor nor the Bow of Lorien. He did not posses the Narya, the Ring of Fire. He possessed a friend... a gardener. Together they just did the one thing they were supposed to do... step by step, day by day.

In contrast, Jon has Ghost. Jon has Longclaw. Jon is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch at age sixteen or seventeen. Jon may be the secret son of the Dragon Prince. Jon has offers to make him Lord of Winterfell. Jon has an offer to marry a gorgeous princess. But Jon seems to be set on doing the right thing.

Mayhaps the better comparison would be Jaime. Jaime has everything Frodo does not... everything. He's sexy. He's a demon with a sword. He's fabulously wealthy. But Jaime's a huge failure. He never does the right thing... except one time... and it earned him everyone's derision and it earned him his nickname.

Frodo's not sexy, but he's what a hero should be.

Shack, I agree that the longer the story, the more time an author has to develop characters. This appeals to me greatly. Even though I don't like Jon, I like his POV's and... he intrigues me. For all his upbringing and success, he's been wounded physically and emotionally. Jon's decision to ship Gilly off with Mance's son was the first thing he's done that tells me he may not be straight out of the cookie cutter. He's starting to be faced with greater levels of decision making... sort of like Eddard was faced with Lyanna. I don't want to see Jon end being Eddard II... I'd like to see him more politically adept.

 

[Shacklock]

Well yeah Boaz all that makes perfect sense, it's just Frodo, like Harry Pothead, to me at least, seemed lacking in any depth or real character, they just seemed weak compared to the 'supporting cast'. Especially in the movies, I noticed.

 

[soulsinging]

Well yeah Boaz all that makes perfect sense, it's just Frodo, like Harry Pothead, to me at least, seemed lacking in any depth or real character, they just seemed weak compared to the 'supporting cast'. Especially in the movies, I noticed.

They used to call me Harry Pothead at the restaurant I worked at... I bore a vague resemblance to him at the time and... well, anyone who's worked in a restaurant will understand the rest

I can see where both you and Boaz are coming from on this, though I think your view applies far more to Frodo than Harry. Harry Potter has as much depth as anyone else in that series I'd say. But I agree that as far as LOTR goes, Frodo does not seem to have much depth, esp in the movies. The far more compelling stories are Aragorn learning to face his destiny and how to be a king. If you've read the Silmarillion, the stories of Gandalf, Galadriel, and the elves are also fascinating to see play out in LOTR. But Frodo simply never held as much interest for me. Too brooding I suppose.

As to Jon, I love him. He's one of the most compelling characters in Martin's series for me. Maybe he is a bit more stock-type, but sometimes I feel the series needs that. And Martin manages to make him real and believable, more so than in other series' I'd say.

 

[The Procrastinator]

Well yeah Boaz all that makes perfect sense, it's just Frodo, like Harry Pothead, to me at least, seemed lacking in any depth or real character, they just seemed weak compared to the 'supporting cast'. Especially in the movies, I noticed.

"Especially" in the movies? I think Boaz is on the money. Forget that whining Movie Frodo (though I wonder if you can). Book Frodo has all the depth and character in the world. What he doesn't have much of is melodrama. He's an ordinary bloke with no special skills who forces himself to undertake the scariest job in the world, survives trials and tribulations, fails at the critical moment, and as Boaz says, remains unrecognised for his feat. You don't read about that kind of heroism much in fantasy, even though LOTR inspired so many and spawned so much, because its actually the kind of heroism that happens to real people (despite its superlative fantasy setting). Surviving a war is a victory of a kind, but through it are laced all kinds of failures (both physical and moral), and who really recognises the feats of war veterans in everyday life? They are taken for granted, because they cannot be understood. Some feel "apart", as Frodo feels; not everyone can "come home". Most fantasy writers can't resist the temptation to make their heroes special in some way. Tolkien did not make Frodo special, he made him real - which makes him very special in my book.

As for ASOIAF, I'm a bit on the fence with this series. The first volumes had a lot of momentum, and I found them completely compelling (and I do love that Tyrion, the little wretch). But the momentum seems to be fading slightly as the storyline becomes more and more complex, introducing more and more elements. I hope GRRM hasn't bitten off more than he can chew, or lost direction. I guess the next volume will tell. So I am reserving judgement for the moment - but I have to admit to feeling a little dubious that our writer still has his hands firmly on the reins. I'm wondering if he hasn't let the story run away with him a bit.

 

[Rolynd]

Re: **Potential Spoilers**Halfway through book 3 and SoIaF is losing me...

OH well, your loss.

Rolynd: Wait until you get to the end of ASOS. The biggest shock of the series is yet in store for you and when you will be reading it, you will be saying to yourself "This isn't happening!!!" You may need a very stiff drink afterwards and maybe some reassurance from someone

Finished ASOS - which shock did you mean? There were a few. Tyrion killing his Father, Catelyn coming back, Jon becoming commander of the night watch...

Whilst not exactly cheerful, things are certainly moving on!

I've just seen ASOS was published in 2000, AFFC 2005!!?? Five years???

 

[Rolynd]

Frodo is neither Gandalf nor Aragorn. He's not powerful. He's not magical. He has neither a connection to divinity nor legions he can call to pave his way. He's not royalty. He's not slick nor sleek. He's not sexy in any way. But Frodo perseveres through tribulation.

It can be argued that all heroes persevere, but in my opinion most are too young to appreciate the sacrifices they're making and too young to really be afraid of failing. Frodo is fifty years old when he sets out for Rivendell. He fully knows he may never come back. He's casting away his chances for love and a family.

In the end, Aragorn, Belgarion, and I suspect Rand al'Thor all sit enthroned in power and showered in love. Frodo retires to obscurity with severe physical ailments. He gave his all and was only respected for it by a select few.

The example of Frodo is to do what is right. It did not matter that Frodo knew of the prophecy of the Halfling. He was beset by traitors, spies, undead, and the Dark Lord all bent upon his failure. He just had to do what was right... what was entrusted to him day by day. That was his power. He could not use Anduril. He did not have the Horn of Gondor nor the Bow of Lorien. He did not posses the Narya, the Ring of Fire. He possessed a friend... a gardener. Together they just did the one thing they were supposed to do... step by step, day by day.

In contrast, Jon has Ghost. Jon has Longclaw. Jon is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch at age sixteen or seventeen. Jon may be the secret son of the Dragon Prince. Jon has offers to make him Lord of Winterfell. Jon has an offer to marry a gorgeous princess. But Jon seems to be set on doing the right thing.

Mayhaps the better comparison would be Jaime. Jaime has everything Frodo does not... everything. He's sexy. He's a demon with a sword. He's fabulously wealthy. But Jaime's a huge failure. He never does the right thing... except one time... and it earned him everyone's derision and it earned him his nickname.

Frodo's not sexy, but he's what a hero should be.

Shack, I agree that the longer the story, the more time an author has to develop characters. This appeals to me greatly. Even though I don't like Jon, I like his POV's and... he intrigues me. For all his upbringing and success, he's been wounded physically and emotionally. Jon's decision to ship Gilly off with Mance's son was the first thing he's done that tells me he may not be straight out of the cookie cutter. He's starting to be faced with greater levels of decision making... sort of like Eddard was faced with Lyanna. I don't want to see Jon end being Eddard II... I'd like to see him more politically adept.

Frodo's situation after the ring is destroyed is exactly what Tolkien walked back home to after his years in the trenches.

Please be careful with spoilers! I haven't read AFFC yet remember.