Some questionable theories about Jon Snow, Melisandre, and the Night's King.

[Dream of Winter]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed previously. I've spent the past few nights reading through the past 15 pages of threads (including all of the pages within those threads) to see if anyone has come up with these thoughts.

But, after reading GRRM's ASoIaF, I was wondering if it's possible that Jon Snow might actually become the Night's King? It has been alluded in the stories that the Night's King was the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, who was a Stark, and was seduced by the corpse queen.

Now, we are aware of the fact that Jon is still haunted by the memory of Ygritte, and we are also aware that her body was cremated. Is it possible that another woman kissed by fire, perhaps even Melisandre, could tempt Jon and he would eventually become the Night's King?

Also, along those lines, my thoughts were sparked on by what someone else had said about Stannis being possessed. Is it possible that Melisandre is actually not a priestess of R'hollar, but rather an avatar or priestess of the Great Other? It can be a plausible, in my mind anyway, that she is able to imitate the abilities of the followers of R'hollar. However, as far as we know, she hasn't brought anyone back to life like Thoros has. She does have some abilities in divination, but is it possible that this ability can be imitated?

More importantly, can Melisandre be the corpse queen that tempted the thirteenth Lord Commander, a Stark, or be another corpse queen raised up by the Great Other?

 

[Culhwch]

Interesting theories. I can't say I've had a recent enough reread to comment intelligently at this point, but I'm sure there will be a few folks in here before long shouting amongst themselves. n the meantime, welcome to Chrons! I must say I'm very impressed with the lengths you went to going back over old posts, no one ever does that...

 

[Boaz]

Welcome, DoW!

I came up with both of those ideas, but they got lost in the server crash last Fall. I also helped Al Gore invent the internet. And the other thing I invented was pastrami....mmmmmm.

Night's King, huh? I had never considered this. My gut reaction is that Jon will not do this. Boromir and Anakin were seduced to the dark side by justifying their actions to save their friends and family. I think Jon's already been tested, repeatedly, and his response has been to stay the course and serve the realm... and he won't damn his soul by taking short cuts. I'm not a fan of Jon, but his decisions to stay with Mormont, to obey Qhorin, to decieve the Wildlings (including Ygritte), to refuse Stannis' offer of Winterfell, and to deny Stannis access to Aemon and Mance's son show the lengths to which he will go to deny himself and promote the welfare of the state.

As you can see, Jon's decisions have become more momentous. If he'd been offered Winterfell and Val before he'd run away or met Ygritee, I think he might have given in and accepted. But the strength of character he's gained by gradually steeling himself against greed and lust have paid off so that he's his own man and the Night's Watch is independent of Stannis, Roose, the Greyjoys, and the Lannisters.

Obviously, I don't have any real evidence, just an impression.

Now as for Melisandre...

She has power... there's no denying it. She can protect. She can kill. She can see into the future. But is R'hllor, the Lord of Light, her source of power? I don't know.

I think a way towards figuring this out by looking at Stannis and Lightbringer and deciding what Melisandre thinks of them. I think Aemon's, Salladhor's, and Davos' observations of Lightbringer show us that it is not the genuine thing... It was being consumed by the flames of the Seven's pyre nor does it give off any heat of it's own. As for Stannis, he neither forged the sword himself nor could he take the sword from the flames without protection. It seems preposterous that these facts have escaped Mel's attention... Soooooo, either she is closing her eyes to these facts or she knows that Stannis is not Azor Ahai reborn.

If she is deluding herself, then either she's ignorant or crazy. From what we've seen of her, we can safely say she's not stupid. This means she's crazy, a blind fanatic, if she cannot see the truth about Stannis.

But if she knows Stannis is not AA, then she's manipulating him for some purpose. Does bringing Stannis face to face with The Other help or hurt The Other? Does it help Westeros or hurt it? It seems that Westeros is now much better prepared to defend itself against the Others with Stannis at the Wall. But if he's not AA, then he'll fall along with the Wall, the best defence against The Other... and the real AA will have that less of a chance of defeating The Other.

I dunno, mayhaps another priest of R'hllor is getting the real AA ready in Tyrosh or Myr while Melisandre does her best to forestall The Other.

Personally, I think Melisandre knows Stannis is not AA. I think she's manipulated him to this point just to further her own plans. I believe that her machinations are nefarious. I say this because she is juxtaposed with Jon. Both of them see Aemon and Mance's son, but Jon sends them away while Melisandre is inclined to make blood sacrifices of them. There are major rationalizations in her thought processes to come to her decision... and if she's not rationalizing, then she's pure evil.

One power that Thoros has which Melisandre does not (or at least has not shown) is the power to resurrect the dead. Thoros can sometimes see the future, if I recall correctly... but it's his ability to raise the dead that identifies him as a priest of R'hllor. Mel's identifying characteistic is to see the future, particularly where it concerns herself. It seems that Thoros' power gives to others, while Mel's gives to herself.

So, does she serve The Lord of Light or The Other? Well, she does not serve Stannis. She serves herself and her hidden agenda.

 

[TK-421]

Halleluah, some fresh new ideas! I love it and you are most welcome here DoW.

Where does one start? Well, Boaz has covered off alot of what I was thinking but I hope to bring a couple of things that have come up out of this thread.

First, Jon. You either like him or hate him. I'm on the side that likes him and I have grown to have much respect for his character. Where does it come from? Is he channelling Rheagar, who was also much liked or is he his father's son? (I mean Ned of course) I think he's a good mixture of both and I have serious doubts that he would be tempted by Mel but she certainly has recognized that she is not dealing with just some chump here. Jon is learned and had the benefit of Mormont and Sam to help him learn how to be a good Lord Commander and no more. The Jon preview chapter gives us a very good glimpse of this and I suspected that she may see Jon as a good replacement for Stannis. I also always suspected that Mel would kill Stannis. Obviously Lightbringer is not the true sword and Stannis is not AA reborn. I would rather think that Dany is AA reborn. But there are many examples of good men tempted to become something they are not and Jon may well be tempted. That preview chapter does end with Mel saying that favourite line of Jon's that Ygritte used to always say. The again, I also always thought that a ******* will sit on the Iron Throne in the end.

As for Mel, is she a fraud? Does she have alterior motives? Who does she work for? I don't think she is a fraud and I am starting to have doubts that she is just a zealot that seeks to spread the good word of Rhllor to Westeros. It's clear that she is now having doubts that she picked the wrong horse in the race. Now that Mel will get her own POV in ADWD, we should get some answers to those questions.

P.S. Boaz: While I love pastrami, you ain't lived until you'd had a Montreal Smoked Meat sandwich. Come to WorldCon in Montreal and it will be my treat.

 

[Bayou Boy]

But, after reading GRRM's ASoIaF, I was wondering if it's possible that Jon Snow might actually become the Night's King? It has been alluded in the stories that the Night's King was the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, who was a Stark, and was seduced by the corpse queen.

Interesting. When I first read book 3 (way back in 2000, not that I'm bitter or anything) I thought there were definite parallels between Stannis and Night's King. I definitely agree with your take on Melisandre. It's possible that she's presenting herself as a servant of R'hllor but is, in reality, serving the Great Other.

 

[Bayou Boy]

First, Jon. You either like him or hate him.

Just an aside, but I guess I'm one of the few who has no strong feelings for Jon one way or the other.

 

[Ursa major]

Now that Mel will get her own POV in ADWD, we should get some answers to those questions.

Her own POV, you say?

If true, this suggests to me that there may be less to Mel than meets the eye (given that ADWD is only Book Five and that GRRM will probably want to keep the really big revelations back until the last book).

 

[TK-421]

Yes her own POV but what GRRM has not said is for how many books will she have her own POV.

 

[Ursa major]

It may be that there are only a small number of Melisandre POV chapters, but it would be odd if those chapters did not give us at least a peek at what Mel is really up to (and for whom). Which suggests that either GRRM wants to give us a glimpse of a real secret - like that's going to happen in Book Five () - or that Mel is not as major a player (as opposed to a tool of others ) as we assume she is.

 

[Barristan's Squire]

Is it possible that Melisandre is actually not a priestess of R'hollar,

I have always thought that Melisandre was questionable.
We are all lead to believe that she is evil or at least has some
secret agenda other than what is at the surface.
There is a lot of focus on that damned big ruby.
I wonder if it is some sort of illusion based magic
or the source of her magic/ communication with a higher being (i.e. he that must not be named or whatever or perhaps rhollar)

i also got the impression that the three kings that "she" killed (leeches)
may allow her to resurrect Ygritte (death pays for life).. and that is the juicy morsel that she will dangle over jons head.

 

[Clansman]

P.S. Boaz: While I love pastrami, you ain't lived until you'd had a Montreal Smoked Meat sandwich. Come to WorldCon in Montreal and it will be my treat.

AMEN, TK!!! I lived on the stuff while at McGill two decades ago. Two little slices of rye, mustard, and pile the smoked meat six inches high, and you are in heaven.

Rue St. Laurent was the Nirvana of Nitrates...

 

[Clansman]

GRRM isn't exactly being subtle about Melisandre, is he. I await a twist, but after seeing her give birth to that THING, the twist may not be coming...

 

[Dream of Winter]

I certainly do appreciate all of your thoughts on this topic, especially those like Boaz and others who have a firmer grip on ASoIaF lore. Although I didn't have the time and the ability to present much evidence, I appreciate the fact that all of you are willing to see these theories as something plausible enough to give it some thought.

However, there is something that was mentioned earlier that I want to discuss further.

But there are many examples of good men tempted to become something they are not and Jon may well be tempted. That preview chapter does end with Mel saying that favourite line of Jon's that Ygritte used to always say.

I think that it is very much possible that the temptation of Jon is not over yet. Even though he has been tempted by his betrayal of the Night's Watch (at the command of the Halfhand), tempted by his love for Ygritte, there might be a third temptation.

In light of the whole Rhaegar and Lyanna theory, which I consider to be a true if not very plausible theory, I believe that there would be and should be a third temptation. However, this temptation might be something that will shake Jon even to the core.

Think about it. He's still shaken up by the fact that he had "betrayed" the Night's Watch and fell in love with a wildling woman. Even though he denied Stannis's offer, there might be something that will tip him over the edge. I think that the one person who will tip him over the edge is Melisandre. She just quoted Ygritte, which should touch Jon's heart strings the wrong way. Not to mention the fact that she's got red hair, and if I remember, pale skin. All of these traits would remind Jon of Ygritte.

Not only that, but because he wants to do good and he wants to save the realm from the wildlings and the Others, could it be possible that he will take on the mantle of Night's King in order to combat or even master the Others?

Now, going back to the theory about the Night's King. I know that GRRM doesn't just throw out information as if it were cheap. Whether this is a red herring or not, only three or more books will tell. All I can say is that with a theory like this, it can be plausible. Only time will tell whether this is a valid rationale.

Now I don't want to make my post too long, but going along the lines of who is Azhor Ahai reborn, could it be possible that if Daenarys truly is AA reborn, would she have to kill her beloved? One could say that she did that with Khal Drogo, but she did that with a pillow and not with a sword that's meant to be Lightbringer.

If this is the case, then who is her true lover? Jorah? Or one of the many suitors that are vying for her hand in marriage?

 

[Boaz]

First, I saw some cable show that featured Montreal's Smoked Meat Sandwich a couple of years ago. It looks like a triple bypass surgery on a plate... a Big Mac with fries is about 1200 calories, but the Montreal looks like about 2000. Mmmmmm, I'd love to get my hands on one.

Also, the Bacon Explosion is the hottest downloaded recipe on the net now. And if you've not seen Jim Gaffigan's bacon comments, you should do so immediately.

Second, If Mel is serious about Stannis being AA, then why is she so negligent with his health. Stannis is younger than Robert and Eddard. He's probably around 36-37 at the end of AFFC, yet everyone thinks he looks close to 60. She's giving birth to shadows, yet Stannis is the one physically suffering for it... she's sucking the life out of him.

Could Melisandre desire to make Jon her new AA? But if Stannis is dead, what will his army do? They do not want to be there. How would she transfer the allegiance of Stannis' troops? I think there are two ways to do this... the first is to convince them all to join the Night's Watch. I think this is nigh impossible, unless they were allowed to serve for five years and not for life. The better way is to kill Selyse, Stannis' wife, and then marry Shireen, Stannis' daughter, to Jon. Thus Jon inherits Stannis' army. Of course, Jon's oath is in the way for this idea to work...

I cannot see the Stormlords following Roose Bolton, but if Bran or Rickon married Shireen, then they could ally themselves with the North.

Edit: DoW posted while I was buys researching bacon....mmmmmm, bacon.

Mayhaps TK can help me point out where the discussions on Dany/The Prince that was Promised and Stannis/Azor Ahai reborn are located. I'm not completely sold that they are the same prophecy. They could be... Dany is almost certainly TPTWP and she could be AA also.

I doubt Jorah was Dany's true love.

AA tempered (i.e. birthed) his sword with the death of his wife. Similarly, Dany birthed her dragons from the funeral pyre of Drogo (whom she personally killed). If this is the proper correlation we're looking for, then Lightbringer is not a sword... Lightbringer is/are Dany's dragons. These three swords then need three riders... aka heads of the dragons. If this is true then I think mayhaps Aemon not only erred in the gender of the word prince, but also in the singular/plurality of the word. It seems we'll have three princes/princesses to wield the three dragon/swords to combat The Other.

The prince is supposed to be born amid salt and smoke.... Dany was. What about Jon, Tyrion, Bran, Young Griff, or the other contenders?

Of course, I grasping at straws here. Please correct me...

 

[Eulalia]

Don't forget poutine, guys! For those not in the know, what could be better than french fries, why, french fries with gravy and cheese curd. OMG!

Shireen is definitely a loose end who has had a POV, and GRRM has, most suspiciously, been awfully quiet about her. While she is plain, she has a drop of targ, and in some eyes, is the rightful heir. I could see her married to Jon, especially if Jon is in love with Dany, yet can't marry her for some reason. (not able to have children?)That would be "bittersweet", a temptation and a self denial all in one. I think Jon would leave his post reluctantly, if he thought the good of the realm depended on it. He has a pragmatic streak. He would also, then, be an in law of Sam. In any case, something has to happen to dispose of Shireen.

DoW, I like your idea of Melisandre being a priestess of the Other. I wonder if Jon will take her out.

Loons are fabulous--have you heard them?

 

[Raven]

P.S. Boaz: While I love pastrami, you ain't lived until you'd had a Montreal Smoked Meat sandwich. Come to WorldCon in Montreal and it will be my treat.

I'll actually be there, but alas I don't eat meat. But the BwB will be having a party, and you guys are more than welcome to come along.

I think that it is very much possible that the temptation of Jon is not over yet. Even though he has been tempted by his betrayal of the Night's Watch (at the command of the Halfhand), tempted by his love for Ygritte, there might be a third temptation.

I'm not so sure I'd count the Halfhand's command as a temptation: I think Jon's 'first temptation' was when he rode off, intending to join Robb. I do like the idea that he will face three temptations, though - mirroring Dany, of course.

Not only that, but because he wants to do good and he wants to save the realm from the wildlings and the Others, could it be possible that he will take on the mantle of Night's King in order to combat or even master the Others?

Very possible. What we have learned recently, after all, is that Lord Snow is prepared to do things that Jon would not, if he thinks they're for the greater good.

Now I don't want to make my post too long, but going along the lines of who is Azhor Ahai reborn, could it be possible that if Daenarys truly is AA reborn, would she have to kill her beloved? One could say that she did that with Khal Drogo, but she did that with a pillow and not with a sword that's meant to be Lightbringer.

If this is the case, then who is her true lover? Jorah? Or one of the many suitors that are vying for her hand in marriage?

Or someone else, who she hasn't yet met... Now wouldn't that be a good ending?

Mayhaps TK can help me point out where the discussions on Dany/The Prince that was Promised and Stannis/Azor Ahai reborn are located. I'm not completely sold that they are the same prophecy. They could be... Dany is almost certainly TPTWP and she could be AA also.

I would have to check AFFC, but doesn't Aemon suggest they are the same?

 

[Boaz]

Raven, but if Dany is to be AA and TPTWP and her true love is someone she's not yet met, then she must kill that lover! Are you suggesting Jon? Aegon? Quentyn? Victarion? Loras? Sansa? Arya? Tyrion? Edric? Gendry? Sam? Val? Quaithe? Hot Pie? Dany killing any other Stark/Snow would be more than bittersweet... it''d be %$#@& tragic!!

Dany's sexual experiences with her hand maiden are not gratuitous in my opinion. The first thing this accomplishes is to show us that if Dany is barren (as she suspects from Mirri Maz Duur's comments), then she'll not be as reticent to take a fertile woman as one of the three heads. The second is that it opens up a much wider selection of characters for us to wonder about becoming heads of the dragons.

I, also, need to reread AFFC with Aemon's conclusions in mind.

Now back off topic.... as for the greatest food ever... I lived in Taiwan for two years right out of college. There was this shack on an alley, just north of the soccer stadiium in Taipei.... and this shack was only open from midnight til 2pm. They catered to the night shift workers. And they had only one thing on the menu... dumplings. But these dumplings were special, the dough was made with something that made the dough yellow and fluffy, maybe it was extra egg yolks. And they served the dumplings with puree'd garlic... it looked like apple sauce. We'd go there after the bars closed or for lunch and eat fifty or sixty!

 

[TK-421]

The last thread where Mel's intentions were discussed is this one:
The Red Lady Conspiracy Theory

Raven and Boaz, you're going down a path that I am sure alot of readers will not want to even consider but I am loving it. When I suggested that Dany is AA reborn, I never made the connection with her having to kill a lover. That adds an interesting dynamic. Stark and Jon fans are covering their ears right now but Jon being the one killed by Dany is intriguing.

Thanks Raven for the invitation to the BWB party in Montreal. I will certainly see if I can make it.

I'm now going to have a smoked meat and poutine lunch and shorten my lifespan by about 2 years.

 

[southron sword]

Also, the Bacon Explosion is the hottest downloaded recipe on the net now.

Unbelievable! How many deaths will occur from this insane recipe. You have to really love bacon
I think after one slice my arteries would clog and I'd pass into a coma.

 

[Eulalia]

I think best practices during festivals and feasts, is to ask yourself, "What would Tyrion do?"!!!

Eat sensibly most of the year and then go for the bacon explosion, the poutine, the smoked meat, the Sangria. (I want to put in a plug for the Montreal bagel over the NY bagel if that doesn't cause too much trouble here)

On the other hand, would having Tyrion as a role model get you hog tied and tossed over a saddle in a sack, or awaiting judgement in a Moon Room?

Maybe Jon will end up with Melisandre, and end up killing her, as his lover. Is there evidence that Jon is the PTWP or the AA? Could there be two P's TWP?

Dany killing Jon. Horrors. Very tragic. Too sad for words. She's already done in one partner, though. Killing one lover would be unfortunate, two would be careless.