Some questionable theories about Jon Snow, Melisandre, and the Night's King.

[the smiling weirwood]

Why would she need to kill more lovers? She already has dragons, those being the weapon(s) of legend. Are you suggesting she has yet more dragons to hatch? That would violate the entire "three" trend.

 

[Ursa major]

I'm now going to have a smoked meat and poutine lunch and shorten my lifespan by about 2 years.

For the sake of GRRM - and that of his readers - can we make sure that he never receives an invitation to eat this life-shortening food.


As to the rest, I think we need more evidence (evidence free of red herrings, that is). We can, I suppose, hope.

 

[Raven]

Raven, but if Dany is to be AA and TPTWP and her true love is someone she's not yet met, then she must kill that lover! Are you suggesting Jon? Aegon? Quentyn? Victarion? Loras? Sansa? Arya? Tyrion? Edric? Gendry? Sam? Val? Quaithe? Hot Pie? Dany killing any other Stark/Snow would be more than bittersweet... it''d be %$#@& tragic!!

I was thinking Jon. Yes, it would be tragic for Dany and Jon, but it depends on how you see that comment about 'bittersweet' endings. I've always taken it to refer to the outcome for the reader, assuming that a bittersweet ending necessarily involves a tragedy for at least some of the characters.

I, also, need to reread AFFC with Aemon's conclusions in mind.

Well, check Aemon's conclusions first. I haven't read AFFC for a while, I might not be remembering right.

 

[TK-421]

Could Dany killing one of her dragons because it becomes to unruly bring Lighbringer and make her AA reborn? Isn't there a rumor that one of her dragons die in ADWD?

Eulalia: I agree with the Montreal bagel statement. You haven't lived until you had a fresh one with cream cheese (and not that light Philly crap) and BC smoked salmon...

I like this thread! It has discussions on Gods (real and false), killing and food all at the same time.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I never thought there was a "true love" that she had to kill. The tale of Azor Ahai just says that he loved Nissa Nissa well, not that she was his fated, spun by the stars love of a lifetime. I would say that Dany loved Drogo well.

Why would there be another she needed to sacrifice when she has already achieved the point of the legend? That is, the creation of a weapon unparalleled.

 

[Gambit]

Up to this point I know we have been operating under the assumption that Dany will be AA reborn. For the sake of mixing things up, I'd like to ask what you guys think of Jon being AA and Dany being the sacrifice. I like the idea of the two being together, it seems like Martin has been teasing that story line along the way. And as crazy as this role reversal sounds it could work very nicely. There's not much substantial evidence in the books to support this but there are a few little things that I like.

1) Dany is not a warrior, she is a Queen. AA is supposed to be a great swordsman someone who can actually physically take battle to the Others. While Dany has shown brilliance in many areas swordsmanship is not one of them. Jon is training and becoming an accomplished warrior, and is already fighting the Others.

2) AA must kill their lover. Dany killed Drogo after he was already a vegetable For her it was both a mercy killing and a catharsis of a sort. Jon, however unwillingly, killed the Halfhand with a sword in his hand, looking into the other mans eyes. I think this a crucial difference. Jon has already shown himself capable of taking the life of someone that is close to him and Lord Snow seems willing to take this mentality even further. Whereas after Drogo, Dany has only ordered people's deaths but not performed the deed herself.

3) Nature of the sacrifice. In the prophecy AA used the living heart of his lover to forge his sword of flames. Dany's ties to fire are undeniably strong. In fact, that is a huge reason Dany is such a viable candidate as the Champion of fire as AA reborn. But I think this characteristic would make her an unbelievably potent sacrifice. Create a sword of flames by using the life blood of the mother of dragons, the unburnt, one who seems to have fire in the very core of her being.

4) This is kind of weak, but Melisandre's interest in Jon coupled with her visions of him point to the fact that he is related to the AA prophecy. Jon's presence in her visions worries the Red Lady and you get the feeling that she isn't quite sure where he fits in.

5) Aemon was frustrated with himself for not recognizing Dany as TPTWP. His mistake was that Dragons have no gender and the prophecy did not apply solely to males. In the AA prophecy dragons are not mentioned and we are certain that the original AA was male. So we can't assume that the prophecy is not gender specific .

6) Finally, I like Jon Snow and as I have just shown I am willing to go through some very creative leaps to keep him alive. Sorry for the super long post, have at it lol

 

[TK-421]

Well, Mel has never met Dany. Could it be that her vision of the future is somewhat limited and Dany is too far away or too far removed from the action on Westeros for her to even come into Mel's consciousness?

 

[Clansman]

Reading this thread has made me realize how badly I need to do a re-read of SoS and AFFC... I have forgotten most of what you guys are speculating about.

Terrible. Just terrible.

 

[Gambit]

It's certainly possible that Mel is just completely oblivious to Dany. In fact, because she never mentions having visions about Jon or the Wall before she arrives in the North it seems like that might be a legitimate point... Still like I said that was the weak link.

And now on a seemingly random point, have you all read Mel's warning to Jon about his impending betrayal, what if someone betrays him to the Other's or maybe the Wildlings for that matter.

 

[Boaz]

Yeah, instead of saying "You know nothing, Jon Snow" what if Melisandre had said, "It is known." Now that would have meant nothing to Jon, but it'd mean a lot to us.

Still reading about Melisandre's and Aemon's thoughts on AA and TPTWP...

 

[Bazza]

I like it Gambit, I like it. However, I think Jon's equivalent of killing his love would be him shooting Ygritte with his arrow. But when he checked on her, it wasn't his arrow that actually killed her. Dany likewise did kill her husband, more of the fact that she let the crazy woman treat him instead of a real healer. She definitely killed him, but in ignorance and not on purpose. So according to the prophecy, I think they both fulfilled the betrayal of the loved one, but not by their own hand.

Hmmm. Did both prophecies involve the three betrayals? Or was that just Dany's experience?

Also, going back to the idea that Mel is an agent of the Other...
I thought the same thing at one point, she seemed so, well, evil. But all magic seems that way at first before you understand it. I liked her explanation to Davos that a shadow was indeed an agent of light. There would be no shadow if it were all darkness. I believe her misguided, but she thinks she is doing good works. I think she is yet another extension of GRRM's illustration that there is no "good" and "evil" it's only a matter of perspective.

 

[Gambit]

Did both prophecies involve the three betrayals? Or was that just Dany's experience?

Both had three. In AA he sacrifices two things of personal value (I can't remember them now and I don't have my books on me) but his love is definitely the third on the list. In TPTWP and all Targ related tails it seems like the dragon will always have three heads.

 

[DeannaBelle]

Man, it's been so long since I've been on here or thought about ASoIaF that I have no idea what to think. I am glad, however, to read a new theory. Too bad I can't evaluate it. I read all the books as quickly as I could, and I got maybe two chapters into my reread before I got distracted. It was driving me nuts not having ADwD!

 

[Boaz]

DeBe, It's good to see you around. Hang in there. Sometimes I wonder if I know too much or not enough. <sigh>

 

[Gambit]

Come on Boaz, some of the insights you have are absolutely ridiculous. If I ever get to the point that I see half the stuff you do I would feel more than accomplished. Still I think it's great that there is still more to be seen, and the fact that you feel that way is good news.

 

[TK-421]

You can imagine alot when you spend your evenings painting resin statuettes of Dany, Melissandre, Jaime and Sandor...

 

[Ursa major]

Are you putting the blame on the endless hours or the fumes, TK?

 

[Bazza]

I think its the booze personally...

 

[Boaz]

You can imagine alot when you spend your evenings painting resin statuettes of Dany, Melissandre, Jaime and Sandor...

Miniatures!!! Not, statuettes... sheesh. I'm telling you, you'll never make a good geek!

 

[Keebs411]

Hey guys im new to the group I am loving all the theories being given in here!

I wanted to respond to something Boaz said "The prince is supposed to be born amid salt and smoke.... Dany was. What about Jon, Tyrion, Bran, Young Griff, or the other contenders?"

in regaurds with the main prophecy about Azhor Ahai and the prince that was promised to I deff think Dany is Azhor Ahai. Im deff a believer that Dany is Azhor Ahai. the prince who was promised the 1st i would think is Prince Aegon. How ever i also buy into the theory that Jon Snow is a Targaryen, the product of Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark and if that is the case i was thinkin about the conditions he was born under? i havent looked back as to location in detail in regards to where the tower is located. but i know Dorne has many diff land aspects to it depending what part your in and if im correct they are also by sea? If Ned really came to find Lyanna in he town he talks how the area was surrounded by the after math of battle and if the tower was by the sea. Could that possible represent the smoke (aftermath of battle) and salt if they were close enough to the sea? or even meaning Lyannas tears as she begged ned to not tell knowing she was going to die? Not as solid as some of the stuff that seems a lil more obvious but it was just something that crossed my mind.

i only came to this because another Prophecy Dany is always repeating to herself is the dragon must have 3 heads. SO originally once i thought of all this and learned of Prince Aegon having really survived i figured perfect! Dany Jon and Aegon.

However im now after the most resent book and learning that Tyrion maybe part Targaryen because of them mentioning and possibly hinting that when Aerys partook in primae nocte he may have fathered Tyroin. Granted primae nocte usually suggests a nobel take a women on her wedding night (Tyroin is the 2nd pregnancy, the twins would be conceived tech on the wedding night). How ever Aerys does visit castllery rock prior to Tyrions birth, and if he did demand rights to Tywins wife it would give further insight and reason to why 1 Tywin loathes Tyrion, not just becasue he kills his wife via child birth, but also because he doubts Tyrion may even be his but his pride would never admit him to have a true ******* son. Also why Tywin would be all about over throwing Aerys during Robers rebellion. Not just cause hw as waiting to pick a winning side, but out of revenge, for refusing to marry Cersi to his son, for taking his one true son and heir by giving him the white cloak, but also for taking his own wife to bed, and conceiving a child that not only kills his wife in child birth but leaves him with a ******* whom he hates. Complicated, a lil far fetched, but still possible. and if this is the case, and Tyrion is Targaryen, would he maybe be the 3rd head of the dragon? and if so who would he replace of the original 3 i think are the stronger canidates?

Iv heard some talk that they think Prince Aegon is a Targaryen, but not Rhaegar’s son that he may be the child of one of the Blackfyre pretenders that fled across the sea. if so Tyroin may replace him in the line up but im not completly sold on that. He holds to much resemblance to Rheagar from everything they mention along with the comet and what dany saw in the house of the undying.

I wish the books didnt take so long to come out so i could just go to the next right away, how ever i love this series so much i also dont want it to end lol