Conjecture: Why was Benjen in the NW?

[Judderman]

Oh no I have to backtrack now. Good spot. Maybe Benjen will reappear and save him later so redeeming my mistake!

It is interesting that the NW can be said to be a noble calling for northmen when it is mainly made up of criminals, at least in recent generations. I suspect most of the northerners from major families who have been involved in it have had either some disgrace or some major depression with their life before joining.

 

[Narkalui]

If I'd been Ned at the end of Robert's Rebellion I'd have made Benjen into Lord Stark of Moat Cailin, still can't understand why that place had no Lord and was allowed to fall into disrepair...

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

It is interesting that the NW can be said to be a noble calling for northmen when it is mainly made up of criminals, at least in recent generations. I suspect most of the northerners from major families who have been involved in it have had either some disgrace or some major depression with their life before joining.

The North remembers. North is still loyal to the old ways and they keep to the Old Gods. Thus, they stick to old traditions and view things differently from the south. Maintaining the NW is still seen as a noble cause and the Black Brothers are treated with honour (compare treatment of Yoren in North and in South). In the South, it seems to depend on families. Those who stick to older ways like Royces would think more highly of the position.

Furthermore, the wall defends North directly. Setting aside the Others, North is also threatened by wildlings. NW is still important to them since they aren't as removed from the wall as the Southern Kingdoms.

Even if they are disenchanted by the way it is treated as the criminals drop off, they still appreciate the services rendered and some may still see it as a noble cause of remaining useful to their families. Old Mormont for example saw it as a way to let his son to have undisputed lordship of the land while remaining useful to the realm as he saw the Wildlings as a credible threat to the realm. Hell, even some Southerners saw it as a way to rise in the world. Take that lordling from chapter 1 (Waymar Royce, upon research, he is also a third son) who came there to be a Black Brother. He certainly thought highly of the position.

 

[Narkalui]

You do need to bear in mind that the Royce family are very much First Men rather than Andal, maybe not so much in terms of their ancestry anymore but, it would seem, definitely in terms of culture which, it occurs to me, is the pertinent issue here.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I swear there is a part in the books in which Ned tells Jon that Starks have been manning the wall since it was raised. I think it is a simple matter of being able to find honour and service in the north by joining the NW.

3rd sons generally have 4 options:
1. become a septon
2. become a master
3. become a knight or minor lord swearing fealty to your brother
4. join the NW (or the kings guard but there are only 7 of those suckers and you still need to be a knight first)

options 1 and 2 wouldn't appeal to Benjen and option 3 (at least the first part) would be out of the question for a man who worships the old gods so option 4 it is.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

You do need to bear in mind that the Royce family are very much First Men rather than Andal, maybe not so much in terms of their ancestry anymore but, it would seem, definitely in terms of culture which, it occurs to me, is the pertinent issue here.

That was the point I was making. They are old-fashioned so they appreciate the NW. North in general is old-fashioned so it wouldn't surprise me if they saw the NW as an honorable duty despite its poor state of affairs.

 

[LilyDraken]

Arsten, you are correct. I don't remember the exact phrasing, but I literally just read that part in GoT a few days ago.

The North remembers. North is still loyal to the old ways and they keep to the Old Gods. Thus, they stick to old traditions and view things differently from the south. Maintaining the NW is still seen as a noble cause and the Black Brothers are treated with honour (compare treatment of Yoren in North and in South). In the South, it seems to depend on families. Those who stick to older ways like Royces would think more highly of the position.

Furthermore, the wall defends North directly. Setting aside the Others, North is also threatened by wildlings. NW is still important to them since they aren't as removed from the wall as the Southern Kingdoms.

Even if they are disenchanted by the way it is treated as the criminals drop off, they still appreciate the services rendered and some may still see it as a noble cause of remaining useful to their families. Old Mormont for example saw it as a way to let his son to have undisputed lordship of the land while remaining useful to the realm as he saw the Wildlings as a credible threat to the realm. Hell, even some Southerners saw it as a way to rise in the world. Take that lordling from chapter 1 (Waymar Royce, upon research, he is also a third son) who came there to be a Black Brother. He certainly thought highly of the position.

I think that this is totally spot-on (and why I highlighted the one part). The North is vaster than any of the other regions (which is also part of the reason Cersei had wanted Joff to spare Ned and send him to the Wall, because she flat out told him that they can't hold the North without the Starks), and keeps to their own traditions.

Despite the sorry state most of the brothers come to NW in (meaning the rapists, thieves, murderers, etc.), in the North there is still honor in the NW because there is honor in defending the realm. Ned himself states this when talking about NW and why they are so important (and why it is so grave a sin/crime in abandoning the post).

Of Benjen specifically, recall the story Meera tells Bran about the "wolf pack" at the tourney, (you know, the one where it's heavily alluded to R+L=J), it describes the (and I'm paraphrasing here), the brash eldest wolf, the quiet wolf, the she-wolf, and the wild wolf, in that order being Brandon, Ned, Lyanna, and Benjen. So it sounds to me, based on that early childhood description, that Benjen was already a bit of an adventurer, and would be very suited to the NW, what with defense against the Wildlings (if nothing else).

Just my two cents.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Of Benjen specifically, recall the story Meera tells Bran about the "wolf pack" at the tourney, (you know, the one where it's heavily alluded to R+L=J), it describes the (and I'm paraphrasing here), the brash eldest wolf, the quiet wolf, the she-wolf, and the wild wolf, in that order being Brandon, Ned, Lyanna, and Benjen. So it sounds to me, based on that early childhood description, that Benjen was already a bit of an adventurer, and would be very suited to the NW, what with defense against the Wildlings (if nothing else).

Just my two cents.

That is a very good point. if Benjen was considered "wild" then he probably wouldn't have been too happy just sitting around during peace-time so he joined a brotherhood perpetually at war. Always things to fight at the wall.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Had a sort of odd thought this morning.

you know how Tormund likes to boast that he slept with a She-bear? what if that story is, in its way, true. but that the "bear" he is actually talking about was Jeor Mormont's wife? do we know who his wife was? didn't the old bear join the Nights Watch after his wife died? maybe Jeor found out that his wife had been unfaithful and slept with Tormund and, in a fit of anger or grief, killed his wife, then went to the wall to ease his guilt.

Bear island is close enough to the wall that Wildlings could be a problem and if Mance could visit Winterfell, there is no reason why Tormund couldn't visit bear island. Also, bear Island is remote. It would be an easy thing to sorta cover up for the mormonts. Maybe Maege helped him, to conceal his shame.

 

[Brian G Turner]

you know how Tormund likes to boast that he slept with a She-bear? what if that story is, in its way, true. but that the "bear" he is actually talking about was Jeor Mormont's wife?

So Tormund's son could be...Jorah??

 

[Narkalui]

Or maybe he's Meage Mormont's lover...

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

So Tormund's son could be...Jorah??

I was thinking a little more recent then that.

Or maybe he's Meage Mormont's lover...

I had considered that as well, though it doesn't really provide an explanation for the Old Bear to go to the wall (though we have established that he didn't necessarily NEED a reason to go to the wall)

I think if Tormund really has bedded a woman of bear island, then he actually loved her and that's why he tells the story that it was a real bear, so as to protect her honour or her memory.

Anyway, just a little crackpot theory.

 

[Narkalui]

I'm enjoying the thought that Meage's daughters might be Tormund's

 

[Boaz]

In Tormund's tales, he never speaks of sailing. The sea would make for some great stories for him. Yet, I like the concept of Tormund being Maege's secret lover.

Anyway, I came her to discuss something mentioned in the OP

Was it related to the truth behind Lyanna?

I think there may be a few ways that this could be true.

I've contended for fifteen years that Aerys is more likely to have impregnated Lyanna than Rhaegar... but either way, a Targaryen b****** (whom Eddard refused to murder) might be a huge political asset decades in the future or safely kept out of the way by putting him in the NW. Eddard and Ben may have conspired to care for Lyanna's son by Ben taking the black so that he would be a high officer or even Lord Commander when Jon would take the black after Eddard cared for him for his first sixteen years.

Did they really take care of him in this manner? Well, it's Catelyn's POV where Luwin says that Ben told him that Jon wanted to take the black. Catelyn thought Eddard was surprised. But we know she's susceptible to being manipulated by Tyrion, Robb, Littlefinger, Walder, and Jaime.... so mayhaps Ed and Ben concocted this (Ben pushed a drunken Jon into it) in order to appear they are innocent.

And then there's how Jon became a steward. Everyone knew Jon had extremely rare fighting skills upon his arrival. Did Mormont just pull him out to be his squire? I don't think so. Ben had a private meeting with the Old Bear the night before he left. I think Ben convinced Mormont to get Jon in line to become an officer. The irony is that Jon thought his meeting with Aemon to secure Sam's appointment, as a steward, was unique.

I do think that Ed and Ben saw the NW as a high and noble calling. They could not ask Robert to remove Jon's bastardy, but they could pave a path for a Targaryen b****** to still protect the Seven Kingdoms as LC of the NW.

On the other hand, maybe Ben did go to the Wall as punishment. From Meera's story of the tourney at Harrenhal, we can surmise that the Stark siblings were close. What if Ben had information regarding Lyanna's relationship to Rhaegar or her situation at court that was pertinent to her disappearance? What if he did not share that information as soon as he learned? What if this information could have prevented Lyanna's disappearance and death, Lord Rickard's death, Brandon's death, the deaths of Eddard's good friends, the deaths of tens of thousands, the entire rebellion, and the death of Eddard's secret love, Ashara Dayne? Given that Ben was fourteen years old (give or take a year) during the rebellion, how would nineteen year old Eddard have reacted upon learning the whole debacle could have been avoided by Ben's honesty?

 

[Koopa]

That moment when your not logged in, and you no longer use the mailadress your acount is linked to, and you can't quite remember your password... . Can't even change to current mailadress cause i evidently created a new account when i switched mailadresses for this forum, only to not use the new account and then forget about it, in favor of old account... . Managed to log in after some trying .

What i wanted to post:
The NW is an important border patrol for the Starks. Historically they have been invaded several times by the free folk with genuine consequences for the Starks. As such it is important for them, that the ever dwindling NW remains relatively strong and manages to hold the wall. Even if they have forgotten the real reason behind the wall its existance. A younger son (whom has romantic views of the watch) joining it, and setting an example for other younger northern sons is therefore not unimportant to their cause of defending their lands. Especially since House Stark has no proper fleet. Meaning it's even more important to secure their landborders. As they already hold a weaknes by sea. One of the only proper fleet in the north in fact belongs to the NW (Eastwatch).

 

[Boaz]

@Koopa Kiwi, I hear you. Security measures can feel like a hassle.

I had another thought regarding Ben. The show turned Ben into Coldhands. This may or may not be what GRRM intends, but it makes me think there could be an intentional link between Benjen and the Three-Eyed Crow. We know that the Three-Eyed Crow has given dreams to both Jojen and Bran in order to get them to come north of the Wall to further his plans. What if he sent dreams to a young Ben as well? What if Ben grew up believing his destiny was to be the greatest ranger of the NW? What if his life's goal was to explore the lands beyond the Wall more than any ranger has ever done before? I don't think it's a big stretch to imagine this. I think Benjen could have explored all the way to the Three-Eyed Crow. Maybe this explains Ben's urging of Jon's appointment as Mormont's squire and Benjen's brusque dismissal of Jon before his last ranging. Benjen might have known he was not coming back or had a tremendous sense of doom.

 

[Koopa]

For me the 3eyedCrow is Bloodraven. (2 eyes from the crow he is watching the realm through and the 1 eye he got left on his human body).

From what i've seen from the hedge knight stories, he is certainly Machiavellian enough for that.
Both Jojen and Bran posses strong magic. In order for the crow to communicate with the recipient,
the recipient may need to posses some magic for the message/dream to come true.

Benjen is a stark, and the starks are one of the few houses whom seem magically gifted. So maybe Benjen posseses some magic.
He did manage to become Coldhands.

Even without possible dreamvisits from the 3eyedCrow, i think Benjen would have ended up a member of the NW. I do feel he didn't fully realize what he was signing up for. And realized to late what some of the sacrifices entail. He was fairly young when he signed up. Not middle aged, or later in life.

 

[paranoid marvin]

I don't think any who voluntarily join the NW know what they are letting themselves in for until they get there. By this stage it's really too late to change your mind. Defence of the wall is seen as an honour, with the chance of seeing some action and making a career - at least in the North. In the South it's about having somewhere to send all your undesirables whilst also bolstering defence and paying lip service to the North that you're assisting in the security of the realm. So the South sends murderers and thieves, whilst the North sends 3rd-4th sons and b*******s. It's quite a useful arrangement, because on the one hand you have hard men capable of handling themselves, whilst also having noble-born and raised to train and lead them.

As we know, the situation in the past was much different. There are a number of garrisons along the Wall that have fallen into disuse and disrepair, so at one time - when people knew that there were White Walkers and other nasty things beyond the wall - they defended their realm properly. The North, primarly governed by the Starks, know that such things exist, and that some day some Winter will return. Whilst the South think it's all grumpkins and snarks. Which is one of the main reasons why there is such a contrast in the importance they put on the defence of the realm.