Age ratings and books

[The Procrastinator]

Why should kids get to do whatever they wish? No one else gets to. Freedom is overrated. But seriously, there's a lot to be learned from restraint, too. Let them watch, read, play whatever - when they're ready for it. A good parent will know when. Until then tell them no - they'll live. Some choices kids can make, some you shouldn't give them till they're ready, whenever that is.

As for reading, I don't see the need to censor that (age guidelines are probably ok in some cases, but not really needed for most things). Reading has two advantages over movies and music:
You can "self-censor" more effectively when reading. A reader can often choose on what level to experience what he or she is reading, and if a reader is less experienced then he or she may not be able to take it in fully anyway. Even if the scene is very graphic, you don't have to see it right there in front of you, or hear it, and in extreme cases you can skip a few pages. Reading engages the mind, not the senses, and so is at a remove in its impact when compared to movies and music, which are more direct physiologically speaking. Good writing can engage the senses of course - but its more a matter of choice. Filtering is easier to do when reading.
Secondly, reading makes the brain work and it takes time to do. Effort is involved. Watching a movie or tv, or even listening to music, is spoon-feeding by comparison. The brain can soak the material in quite passively with no critical faculties engaged, very little thinking required. Your emotions are engaged directly. Reading makes you think: thinking is good for you. No one is going to take on Consider Phlebas for a cheap thrill because of the gross scene - hours of wading through prose with vocabulary and grammar and stuff that makes you think and pay attention. They'll get out a gross movie instead.

Just as an aside - I remember reading Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, thinking how scary that would be if they filmed it (the basilisk scenes in the sewers - I am scared of snakes, and I am mildly claustrophobic - right up my alley). It was cleverly written so that the reader could engage with it on different levels depending on their experience - just what I like to see in kids books. When they did make the movie I found it much scarier to watch than I had to read - but some kids I've spoken to about it didn't find it that scary. They're already quite sophisticated when it comes to watching that kind of thing - seen it all before. Will they turn into the kinds of teenagers (I'm sure you know some) who have to watch grosser and grosser things to feel anything? And they will, too.

 

[BookStop]

Well,M, that has a certian truth to it too. As a society, we do seem to be raising a non-thinking, frightened of change and difference, bunch of kids. It's one of my pet peeves and something I strive to not do to my own kids. I don't think Europe is as bad as the United States about these sorts of problems, at least, Germany isn't. I'm fortunate enough to be able to move house so often, my family is constantly exposed to new things. For example, here in Germany the boob mug is quite popular in little tchotchkey shops. Int he States, that would not fly. The mug would have to be on the top shelf, wrapped in paper, and perhaps locked in a cabinet - and it's just harmless fun. If the parents don't judge, then the kids tend not to judge either.

Procastinator - becoming desnsitized would be awful as the joy you experience from feeling what you're seeing makes it worth seeing. I too would be worried about anyone obsessing over what makes them feel joy, or shivers, or anything to apoint of feeling nothing,.

 

[AE35Unit]

All parent protection does is delay the inevitable. Why shouldn't kids be allowed to see sex, violence, drugs, or hear hard language? I did as a kid-such as Dracula when it came out in 1992, I was six then-and I turned out just fine.

I'm sorry but there's no way i'm letting my kids see stuff like that. Until you have kids yourself you won't understand that it can affect them. You may not see any difference right away but in a few days,at bed time you may find one of them saying they can't sleep because there's something under the bed,in the room,outside the window etc. They may have had a bad dream the night before and its played on their minds because,unlike us they can't yet divorce reality from fantasy! To them what they see on TV they believe as real! Trust me they do! Now my other half plays Fable 2 at the moment and on the whole its not too bad when matthew is around,but there are certain parts that are quite loud and graphic and when such stuff comes on he gets excited,but in a bad way. He will come running to me when a certain scene on such and such a program comes on,and so when he's around there's parts of the game that she won't play until he's in bed.

 

[manephelien]

I would probably allow my kids to read whatever they wished, as my parents never censored my reading.

I probably wouldn't attempt to censor what music they listened to, since I don't object to kids knowing swear words, as long as they know when it's appropriate to use them as well, e.g. not in front of teachers or old fogeys who might object. At about age 8 or 9 I went through a phase of using language that would make a sergeant major blush thanks to an older cousin who thought it was a fun thing to teach a kid to swear, but grew quickly tired of it when I didn't get the shocked reaction from my parents I was looking for. My very devout maternal grandmother, on the other hand... I did get the reaction I was looking for from her, as well as being grounded for more than a week in the middle of summer vacation by my parents.

I would censor games, movies and TV, although I'm well aware that determined kids will find ways to watch and play media their parents think are inappropriate.

We didn't have a TV until I was 15, mainly because my parents thought there was nothing worth watching on the box. As a result I was considerably more sensitive than most of my peers to visual media. I was 10 when ET came out and got invited to the movies by a friend's parents as a birthday treat for the friend. I had nightmares for weeks, and that was a movie for kids. So it's very individual, since I also know a seven year old who's seen the extended editions of the LotR movies several times, the first time when he was five, without turning a hair. The plots are too convoluted for him to follow as yet, but he loves the battle scenes.

 

[AE35Unit]

I don't object to kids knowing swear words, as long as they know when it's appropriate to use them as well, e.g. not in front of teachers or old fogeys who might object.

Ah yes but how can you trust a child to know when and where is appropriate? And you tell them not to do something and they do the opposite. My 5 year old girl knows what a swear word is,in other words she knows that a certain word is bad,and will often say to me
'ah,Daddy you said a naughty word' if I say bloody or whatever and unfortunately she hears a lot of swearing at grandmas house! But altho she makes the distinction here,at home,I can't trust that to work when out there,away from the home,at school. Kids are like sponges,soak everything up and thats why you get kids like the ones round the corner that are rude and if you approach them will tell you to f off you ugly b***ard! Obviously thei parents speak to each other that way when the kids are around and they just think its normal! You have to realise that kids aren't just smaller versions of us! What experiences they have now will determine who they grow up to be.

 

[manephelien]

Indeed. What I suppose I meant was that I don't believe that trying to stop kids being exposed to swearwords would work. I'm certain that being a parent involves being embarrassed by your kid in public multiple times, until they learn the sort of behavior you expect of them. Sooner or later you're just going to have to trust them to behave more or less appropriately even when you're not there. Looking at some teens today, though, they behave badly because their parents never bothered to intervene when they behaved badly in public at a younger age. With a bit of luck you can get your own back by telling funny anecdotes about them once they hit their teens and are old enough to be embarrassed by such stories.

 

[zachariah]

Why shouldn't kids be allowed to see sex, violence, drugs, or hear hard language? I did as a kid-such as Dracula when it came out in 1992, I was six then-and I turned out just fine.

Are you kidding? You're the poster child for parental censorship! You grew up to hang around shady internet forums where you share your violent fantasies of knife-wielding killer girls!

Well, considering I got my daughter a cuddly Cthulhu before her 1st birthday, I'm not exactly Mr Censor myself. I certainly know there's stuff on the tube she doesn't want to watch, and I won't be forcing her to. There are some children's picture books she won't let me read to her because they're 'too scary'. I don't hide anything from her, but I don't put anything her way that I know, from her own reaction, she wouldn't want to see.

 

[AE35Unit]

I'm certain that being a parent involves being embarrassed by your kid in public multiple times, until they learn the sort of behavior you expect of them.

Oh god yes,you have no idea!
Daddy,why is that man fat?
Daddy,what does bugger mean?
Oh Daddy,you f@®ted!
I love kids,they just say what they feel and don't care.

 

[Lilmizflashythang]

I believe it depends on the child. Take my brother and myself for example. He has always liked the slasher films, I have noticed, with the exception of a few movies and such, that most of what I like is Sci-fi fantasy.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes I try to watch his movies with him so we have something in common. Conviently, however there is always something that need to be done about the time it starts getting gory. *whistles innocently*

All I'm saying, is something are more suitable for some than others. You have to take it one child at a time.

 

[thepaladin]

Am I the only one who thinks it's never appropriate to "swear"? (Yes I do lose it now and again, doesn't mean it was appropriate)

Children are not "little adults" and can't deal with violent and overtly sexual images the way adults do. We as a socioty are introducing these things to our children earlier and earlier and it has results. Parent s should take time to be parents and at least guide and explain to their children. They will be exposed to descriptionsm, pictures, and concepts early from friends etc. As parents we need to be sure that these experinces are in context...in other words in real life you really shouldn't "take out" those who annoy you or are in your way. Or...sex with stragers actually can kill you, and so on.

I find "ratings systems" while okay guidelines do very little on their own to protect kids, the parents have to engage.

 

[AE35Unit]

Am I the only one who thinks it's never appropriate to "swear"? (Yes I do lose it now and again, doesn't mean it was appropriate)

Children are not "little adults" and can't deal with violent and overtly sexual images the way adults do. We as a socioty are introducing these things to our children earlier and earlier and it has results. Parent s should take time to be parents and at least guide and explain to their children. They will be exposed to descriptionsm, pictures, and concepts early from friends etc. As parents we need to be sure that these experinces are in context...in other words in real life you really shouldn't "take out" those who annoy you or are in your way. Or...sex with stragers actually can kill you, and so on.

I find "ratings systems" while okay guidelines do very little on their own to protect kids, the parents have to engage.

Absolutely spot on there! I hate bad language,even tho i sometimes use it myself out of (bad) habit! Trouble is Katie spends a lot of time at Grandmas,practically every weekend,and she swears an awful lot. F this and F that and when i'm there and she swears like that,with the kids in the house,it grates on me! Others tell her there's no need to swear but she takes it badly and ends up in a fowl mood all day! Sign of the times. Everyone up here swears like a trooper to the extent its become normal language and some even use that as an excuse!

 

[Vladd67]

It is a sad reflection on this country that I have heard that the French tend not to refer to the English as Les Rosbifs anymore but have updated the 100 years war term of Les Goddams to Les F&*kyous I do hope this is an exageration.

 

[AE35Unit]

Vlad,what does les Rosbifs mean?

 

[chrispenycate]

I assume the ratings would be guidance for a parent, not 'any child caught with a book/DVD/game cartridge outside his official age group will be prosecuted along with the supplier'? I know public libraries enforced age limits on certain sections in my youth, but I was allowed (read "encouraged") to root through my parents' bookshelves and read anything that interested me; some of which was probably totally inappropriate. Whether this had any influence on what I am today cannot be stated with accuracy, the influences on a human being beyond convenient analysis.

But in one way it could turn out to be useful – no more buying a book from one of your favourite authors on name, only to discover that she's decided to do a series for pre-adolescents, aimed at their vocabulary and attention span.

Les Rosbifs is a vaguely derogatory term the French use for the English (possibly in revenge for "frogs", possibly due to the pleasing 'saignant' colour they go on the first day at the beach. I frequently refer to myself as "Le Rosbif de service".

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

Actually, Chris, if I'm thinking correctly, here in the U.S. establishments that go against ratings laws (i.e., selling a minor an "R" rated movie without accompaniment), I believe they could get at least some kind of fine. I might be wrong, though.


I still say the whole thing's ridiculous. I blame genetics for intelligence in children or lack thereof, and some people simply shouldn't reproduce. Nature even tells them that sometimes, actually. (Miscarriages, non-taking invitro.)

 

[manephelien]

I don't blame genetics, I blame lazy/overtired/excessively career oriented parents who don't bother to engage with their children, but prefer to dump them in front of the TV to avoid being bothered after a long day at work, instead of talking with them.

Ratings are a good guide, but do nothing on their own. Some people buy R-rated games for their 12 year olds just like some buy liquor and tobacco for their 13 year olds, and neither behavior is particularly responsible.

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

I find it rather irresponsible of the government to be hypocritical in every aspect of people's lives because the majority of people in the United States seem to belong to some kind of branch of Christianity and they whine whenever something that goes against their misinterpretation of the holy scriptures reaches the hands of impressionable young children.

 

[AE35Unit]

I don't blame genetics, I blame lazy/overtired/excessively career oriented parents who don't bother to engage with their children, but prefer to dump them in front of the TV to avoid being bothered after a long day at work, instead of talking with them.
.

Or worse,those that have kids but both parents work and arrange for child care from a young age and hardly see their kids! Why bother having kids if you're not gonna bother paying them any attention,playing their games with them,reading to them, etc. Instead they're delivered to god knows who for most of the day,who probably end up closer to them than the actual parents do!
Its bad enough that my daughter is at school most of the day, only time we see her is first thing,us bleary eyed,and evening. Weekends she's at grandmas from friday till sunday,being spoiled rotten,then back to school again!

 

[Rodders]

I think that a lot of these problems can be attributed to the recent rise of the underclasses. The Jeremy Kyle show wannabees and the Asbo generation. You know, the people that have no job yet have a widescreen TV in their front room constantly on at full blast which they use as a babysitter for their children.

Personally, i feel that society started going down hill when we stopped being able to discipline children. I used to get the cane at school if i did something wrong. I used to be terrified of the Police as they would give me a clip round the ear if i was doing anything wrong then report me to my parents. Who would then also give me a bit of a beating. I was brought up to respect the older generation. I also went outside and played with friends. This helps a lot in the developement of good social skills and understanding. You just cannot get this from a playstation. Getting back on topic, it was my parents who decided whether something was suitable or not. I didn't need any guidelines in the form of age restrictions.

I also think that a lot of this has to do with Money. And with money comes the pursuit of status. I really feel that as a working class person, i am not psychologically equiped to deal with money. I have to spend it, i have to get the latest gadget, i have to compete with my peer group. I feel that many people's core values are changing and society (certainly for my social group) is loosing it's family values and the respect for each other in the constant pursuit of nice shiny trinkets.

Not very well expressed, and for that you have my apologies, but i do hope that the thought comes across.

 

[AE35Unit]

Rodders,re the lack of discipline,you're dead right! Kids get away with far too much,have now got too much freedom and grow up thinking the world owes them! And by the way government ministers and PC nanny types,disciplining does NOT mean spanking your kid! When my daughter misbehaves I have a proven method of dealing with it. Suddenly get up,grab the child,drag into the hall and shut the door behind them with the message,when you've learned to behave you can come out!
A few minutes pass and I get a Sorry daddy!
All done!