Moorcock's science fiction?

[j d worthington]

I'll be interested in your responses, Connavar. The two books are very, very different....

Urlik: I would argue that Pyat does have his redeeming traits. As with so many of Moorcock's characters, he has a certain naïveté which can be quite engaging at times (though at others it takes a rather repulsive turn); he has flights of fancy which border on sheer poetry; and he often honestly means well (by his lights), but is such a complete Fool (in the formal sense of that term) that his very good intentions become his faults.

He is, however, an extremely difficult character; someone I could imagine being with for rather short periods of time, but prolonged exposure to him would be very hard to take.

And the novels themselves thus take a certain distance to be able to appreciate what Moorcock is doing with them, and to see what wonderful books they are, in the end. I can easily see why both these and Breakfast in the Ruins were among the books he found it most difficult to write....

 

[Connavar]

This Pyat and his redeeming traits or lack of sound very interesting. Who doesnt like characters like that. Which book/stories is he from ? Breakfest in The Ruins ?


Yeah J.D i know they are so different i want to try as many different sides of Moorcock as i can. Those books synopsis hooked me in the little i read.

I know what his fantasy can do, will be interesting to see how i find his SF.

 

[j d worthington]

No, Pyat is the protagonist (no one in their right mind would call him a hero in any sense of the term) of a four-volume set often called Some Reminiscences of Mrs. Cornelius Between the Wars:

Byzantium Endures
The Laughter of Carthage
Jerusalem Commands
The Vengeance of Rome

the titles of which also form a refrain which occurs throughout the later books. It also gives a fair amount of insight into Pyat's thinking, for that matter.

And I don't think most people like characters such as Pyat -- he isn't flawed but likable; he's about as likable as a porcupine in your bed. It's just that he does have some interesting qualities and he is certainly a very interesting lens through which to see the world....

John Clute has a very interesting article on the character, which you might want to read before plunging into these novels (the quartet makes up close to 2000 pp., iirc)....

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Of course, to be honest, Karl Glogauer (of Behold the Man and Breakfast in the Ruins) isn't exactly a much more likable character, either....

 

[Urlik]

JD; don't get me wrong, I've read Byzantium and Carthage and think they are both great books, especially as the protagonist isn't anywhere near as likable as Moorcock's other (anti)heroes, and are an example of how good a writer MM is.
Pyat is more likable than Jephraim Tallow from The Golden Barge and it does MM credit that I couldn't put the books down.

for all of that, Pyat is more believable as a character than many other protagonists.
he gets swept along by events and often acts selfishly. this makes him more human with faults and failings that the reader can identify with, even if they are sometimes taken to extremes

 

[j d worthington]

I suppose the difference is that Tallow is the protagonist of a quite short novel (plus his brief appearance in Gloriana), whereas you are in Pyat's head for a veerrrry long time....

Tallow, too, is an interesting character, much more complex than one would expect from someone the age Moorcock was when he wrote the novel (15? 18? I forget exactly at the moment). It is fascinating to watch him be "tainted" by becoming more and more human, more and more involved with those around him, only to reject them (and, really, himself) in the end. And some of what he says to Zhist has a great deal of truth to it, as well.

Again, Moorcock was tackling, at an early age, some extremely complex and subtle issues, and exploring them through characters rather than simply expounding them... and not just presenting straw-man arguments, either, but honestly exploring various sides of a question by giving the reader characters which, even when types, were more nuanced and layered than is usual for popular fiction.

And it's interesting you should bring Tallow up, as I've got The Golden Barge set aside to re-read in the next week or two....

 

[Urlik]

I've been meaning to tackle the Pyat Quartet and The Golden Barge again as I was quite young when I read them and I probably missed many of the finer points of The Golden Barge and the 2 Pyat books I read.

 

[j d worthington]

With all the other things I have going on, it's going to be quite a while before I get to the Pyat books (though I am attempting to reread my entire Moorcock again, inserting the few things I've not read before).

I'd be interested in your thoughts on either of these, should you have a chance to read/re-read them....

 

[Urlik]

I've got to either buy them or rejoin my local library as that is where I got them from when I originally read them, so it could take me a while to get hold of them, but when I do, it will be fun to swap notes.

 

[j d worthington]

One thing, Urlik: I don't know which edition of these you had, but avoid the American editions, especially that of The Laughter of Carthage, which was edited without M.M.'s permission (iirc) -- to the point of an entire chapter being removed... one which, though brief did, as I recall, play a notable role in future events in the cycle.

F.E.: Given that Moorcock has written something like 40-50 books in the interim, narrowing it down is quite a chore; however, here is my (at least tentative) list:

The Cornelius Quartet: I realize that some of this was done in the 1960s and early 1970s, but when collected together, it forms a "meganovel" of considerable scope, with varying levels of writing, including some which is quite superb, and is one of the major books in Moorcock's oeuvre.

The Revenge of the Rose: while not the most recent of the novels dealing with Elric (I've not yet read The Skrayling Tree or White Wolf's Son, though I have read -- and liked -- The Dreamthief's Daughter) it is certainly one of the best, and has some wonderful stuff and beautiful writing to it. It also brings in The Rose, who is one of Moorcock's most fascinating creations.

Mother London: I've spoken about this one at length elsewhere; suffice to say I think it is one of Moorcock's best books, and is one of the most warm, generous books I've ever read.

Blood: Simply a marvelous tour-de-force; showing Moorcock at the height of his powers; rich in thought, rich in texture, a stunning achievement in technique and storytelling, as well as giving entirely new layers of interpretation to the concept of his multiverse and its relation to our own reality.

The Brothel in Rosenstrasse: I hesitate to suggest the Pyat novels for the reasons outlined above (plus the fact I've not yet read the final one myself, only excerpts); but in some ways this novel, with its protagonist Rickhart von Bek, is very closely allied to that one in themes and feel. It also shows Moorcock's literary abilities at a very high point, and showcases his ability to blend the various layers of metaphor in a quite masterful way -- the events (sexual and otherwise) within the brothel and those in the world outside mirroring and interpreting each other in an extremely controlled performance that elevates this novel far beyond its ostensible events. I will warn, however, that for those who object to sexual explicitness in their reading, this one is not for you. As noted, the sex here is overt, and it is at the heart of the tale; not only for its eroticism (which the book does indeed explore) but for its rich metaphoric value as well. A difficult book in some ways, and the protagonist is thoroughly unlikable; but it is also one that repays many re-readings.

There are several othes I'd like to suggest, such as The War Hound and the World's Pain, which is a wonderful fantasy; The Dreamthief's Daughter, which blends the Elric and von Bek cycles and is also a fascinating book; London Bone, a very worthy collection of often subtle, nuanced shorter tales; and Earl Aubec (American edition), which brings together the majority of Moorcock's shorter writings, including such impressive stories as the My Experiences in the Third World War set....

 

[Urlik]

There are several othes I'd like to suggest, such as The War Hound and the World's Pain.

follow your impulse and recommend it
there are some fantastic concepts in War Hound and it is a great retake on some older ones, but I'll leave that discussion for another time.

and I think I probably read the UK edition as I live in the UK and I can't see our local library getting the US edition of a book that was/is in print over here

 

[j d worthington]

Thought that was probably the case, but decided to mention it as a precaution. Besides, anyone else reading this thread that might be interested, might benefit from the information as well....

And the only reason I didn't put it on the list was the fact I was being asked to pick five... so I had to put it in as a supplemental suggestion....

 

[dask]

Well, for one thing, they didn't use the term "New Wave" that often themselves; that was more a label that was put on it elsewhere. But it was a conscious movement, nonetheless.

I've always thought that, but there's an article in Robert Holdstock's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SCIENCE FICTION where some "knowledgable" irritant asserts the New Wave is a myth, that there was no such thing. Are you familiar with this view?

 

[j d worthington]

I'm not familiar with the particular article to which you refer, but I'm familiar with at least one similar view. There is a certain amount of truth to it, as it wasn't an organized "movement" in the formal sense, with a definite criteria for what constituted the art they were producing -- the way it was, say, with the Futurists and such; but how someone can claim it wasn't a movement in the more general sense (given the various manifestoes published from several of the various writers concerned) is difficult to discern, short of outright myopia.

While getting them together on formulating an artistic creed (beyond the determination to once again establish science fiction as a part of mature literature, thereby at least attempting to eschew its more immature, overly-obvious qualities, its pulpish aspects and the like) would have been like "herding cats", nonetheless, there was, from the evidence, a conscious movement toward a more genuinely literary approach, with intent to address what the writers saw as the major themes and issues not only of their time, but of the human condition -- and those participating in this did set themselves off in many ways from the mainstream of sf.

This caused a lot of friction at the time, and no little acrimony (on both sides); and to claim that it wasn't a conscious effort to at least start a movement away from what were perceived as the norms of sf seems to me to be quite disingenuous. Granted, many later claimed something of this sort -- after all, there was a fair amount of pretentious work that came out of the New Wave, as well, and a more mature writer is likely to be a bit embarrassed at some of the "indiscretions" of his artistic youth -- but as I said, the manifestoes remain, as well as simple statements from a fairly notable number of writers associated with the term, and I don't see how you can get around that sort of evidence.

I still say one of the best things I've read on the subject is Colin Greenland's The Entropy Tango: Michael Moorcock and the British 'New Wave' in Science Fiction; not only is it informative and thought-provoking (despite being his first published book, iirc), it is also an entertaining bit of literary criticism as well, and is refreshingly candid about his own biases....

At any rate, despite its faults (which, at their worst, could be quite egregious), I see the New Wave as a very important part of the history of the field, with a great deal of value to offer; and a substantial amount of what was written within that movement remains both enjoyable and challenging today; it also produced several things which are now justly seen as classics of the genre; so I see no reason to dismiss (or wish to dismiss) the existence of such a movement, either....

 

[dask]

I thank you for that. For my part, I pulled down my copy of Holdstock's Encyclopedia from the top of my bookcase and lo!, I couldn't find the article I mentioned. Apparently I spoke before double-checking and now must apologize for my bonehead mistake. Old smoothie between the ears ain't what it used to be. There is an article about the New Wave and it pretty much mirrors what you say, but it's written by Christopher Priest, hardly the "knowledgable irritant" I made reference to and so I virtually flagellate myself before the whole world for that misguided allusion. But I read that silly little article somewhere. It's just a matter of aligning my cerebral cue ball in the right direction...

 

[j d worthington]

I've no doubt it exists, all right. I've seen claims of the like before, but they were no more than vague statements or a simple disclaimer (in most cases, anyway); nothing more than blanket ex cathedra pronouncements with nothing given to support them....

 

[Connavar]

Which of the books mentioned in thread is a serious SF with Moorcock at his best themes,prose wise ?

Not talking about an adventure sf like Warlord of Air which was serious at times.
The Cornelius Quartet sounds fun but also over the top,similar to his other famous series. Nothing wrong with that but im looking for a different book by Moorock.

A rated book of his that is SF, a book like Gloriana but not literary fantasy. Im thinking about books like Behold the Man.

 

[j d worthington]

Which of the books mentioned in thread is a serious SF with Moorcock at his best themes,prose wise ?

Not talking about an adventure sf like Warlord of Air which was serious at times.
The Cornelius Quartet sounds fun but also over the top,similar to his other famous series. Nothing wrong with that but im looking for a different book by Moorock.

A rated book of his that is SF, a book like Gloriana but not literary fantasy. Im thinking about books like Behold the Man.

Actually, that's something of a poser, Con. Moorcock hasn't written much "straight" sf in decades, really; though he has written things which fall into the broader definition of the term, from some of the pieces in London Bone or Lunching with the Antichrist to Blood (and the other books connected to that one). Even Mother London has a slight tinge, in that the main characters all have some telepathic factors, and the structure of the novel makes it into something of a time-traveling piece, as it is not told in any truly chronologically linear fashion.

F.E. mentioned The Black Corridor... and that is certainly a stylistic tour-de-force, though I'd hardly call it Moorcock's best in the sf field (or worst, for the matter). It may, however, be a bit difficult at times for some to follow. Ditto with Breakfast in the Ruins, though that one certainly has some exquisite prose, and is a very challenging on several levels.

As for the Cornenlius books... while there is certainly an "over-the-top" side to them, they are deeply informed with a serious intent, and some of them can get rather grim, even bleak, at times. And here, again, the prose varies, from a much lighter sort of thing in The Final Programme to quite unconventional in A Cure for Cancer, to dense and layered and very, very controlled, in The English Assassin and The Condition of Muzak. While such things as The Nature of the Catastrophe (or its more recent version as The New Nature of the Catastrophe) runs the gamut from quite comic to extremely stark pieces by Moorcock and various other writers.

You might want to dip into something like The Rituals of Infinity, as it is a short novel which seems to be fairly straightforward sf before taking some very Moorcockian turns; then go to something quite different with Breakfast in the Ruins, another book featuring Karl Glogauer (of Behold the Man), and which has been called "a series of alternative crucifixions"... quite fittingly, in my view. And for a taste of Moorcock's "science fiction" at perhaps its most mature, Blood. You'll find each of these quite different from the others, but somewhere in there I think you'll find something you like. Certainly you should find something which challenges you on various levels....

 

[Fried Egg]

Connavar

I think you should definitely give "The Dancers at the End of Time" a go, especially given your liking for the dying earth subgenre. Not that this is in anyway like Vance's "Dying Earth" but it's an alternate, decadent and disturbing vision well worth a read.

If you want something that is quite psycological, that plays with the protagonists perception of reality (like P.K. Dick) than I would definitely recommend "The Black Corridor".

 

[Connavar]

Actually, that's something of a poser, Con. Moorcock hasn't written much "straight" sf in decades, really; though he has written things which fall into the broader definition of the term, from some of the pieces in London Bone or Lunching with the Antichrist to Blood (and the other books connected to that one). Even Mother London has a slight tinge, in that the main characters all have some telepathic factors, and the structure of the novel makes it into something of a time-traveling piece, as it is not told in any truly chronologically linear fashion.

F.E. mentioned The Black Corridor... and that is certainly a stylistic tour-de-force, though I'd hardly call it Moorcock's best in the sf field (or worst, for the matter). It may, however, be a bit difficult at times for some to follow. Ditto with Breakfast in the Ruins, though that one certainly has some exquisite prose, and is a very challenging on several levels.

As for the Cornenlius books... while there is certainly an "over-the-top" side to them, they are deeply informed with a serious intent, and some of them can get rather grim, even bleak, at times. And here, again, the prose varies, from a much lighter sort of thing in The Final Programme to quite unconventional in A Cure for Cancer, to dense and layered and very, very controlled, in The English Assassin and The Condition of Muzak. While such things as The Nature of the Catastrophe (or its more recent version as The New Nature of the Catastrophe) runs the gamut from quite comic to extremely stark pieces by Moorcock and various other writers.

You might want to dip into something like The Rituals of Infinity, as it is a short novel which seems to be fairly straightforward sf before taking some very Moorcockian turns; then go to something quite different with Breakfast in the Ruins, another book featuring Karl Glogauer (of Behold the Man), and which has been called "a series of alternative crucifixions"... quite fittingly, in my view. And for a taste of Moorcock's "science fiction" at perhaps its most mature, Blood. You'll find each of these quite different from the others, but somewhere in there I think you'll find something you like. Certainly you should find something which challenges you on various levels....

I look at Moorcock bibliography and i see that you dont want straight sf or fantasy with him. I didnt mean straight sf but sf that challenged me and wasnt a series. Thats the only reason im not going after Cornenlius books because i dont want to commit to another SF series at the moment. I have Bastable series,other series im finishing right now.

Like the books you recommend in Blood is what im looking for. Im looking for sf only because i want to sample other mature Moorcock works.


By the way i have to ask again about Pyat books, what makes them speculative fiction as the blurbs,synopsis,reviews say about that series ?
Sounds like a serious historical fiction stories to me.

 

[j d worthington]

RE: The Pyat books... they are more closely related to the "alternative history" sort of thing, in a way. Though the major events depicted certainly happened in our reality, there are smaller things which almost certainly did not.... But this could also be ascribed to Pyat's own tendency toward grandiosity and self-promotion at the expense of others (he is about as unreliable a narrator as one can imagine).

These are actually "memoirs" of the character of his involvement in various turning points of the twentieth century. At times the books are brutal; at times poignant and poetic; and at times farcical (Pyat is also the classic Fool -- Pierrot with delusions of being Harlequin). The genuine history is very well researched, but given his own perverse spin.

When you say "you don't want straight sf or fantasy with him", are you referring to the general "you" -- the general reader, or me specifically... and do you mean "want" or "expect" here?

F.E.: My hesitation with recommending the Dancers at the End of Time is because they are quite comic a fair amount of the time, which I had thought Connavar was not interested in at the moment. But on other levels, I agree... they are wonderful books, with about as bizarre and memorable a set of characters as one could wish....