Recommending SF to new readers

Personally Fried Egg, i really like Alastair Reynolds (there are a few recent posts for him) specifically Revelation Space, Chasm City, Galactic North and the Prefect. Iain M. Banks' earlier culture books too are also a great read and destined to be modern day classics. I'd also recommend the Forge of God and it's follow up Anvil of Stars by Greg Bear. Incredible.

If you like a bit of Military SF i'd also recommend the Founding by Dan Abnett. It's an omnibus edition of the first three Gaunts Ghost novels in the Warhammer 40K universe.
 
AE35 - good sf shouldn't be about the writer's world, it should be about the story's world. And no one should write to their audience's prejudices.
 
Personally, i really like Alastair Reynolds (there are a few recent posts for him) specifically Revelation Space, Chasm City, Galactic North and the Prefect. Iain M. Banks' earlier culture books too are also a great read and destined to be modern day classics. I'd also recommend the Forge of God and it's follow up Anvil of Stars by Greg Bear. Incredible.

If you like a bit of Military SF i'd also recommend the Founding by Dan Abnett. It's an omnibus edition of the first three Gaunts Ghost novels in the Warhammer 40K universe.
I've put Alastair Reynolds on my list but Iain M Banks I've already read a few of. Some I like more than others. Funnilly enough with Banks is that I tent to prefer his non-SF material...
 
Modern sf I'd recommend...

If a person normally read thrillers, then something by Richard Morgan. If they preferred literary fiction, then perhaps Kim Stanley Robinson or M John Harrison Or Gwyneth Jones. If they liked Wells' The Time Machine, then perhaps they'd like Baxter's The Time Ships. Al Reynolds is good but I wonder if the learning curve is a bit steep. Ken MacLeod's The Execution Channel and The Night Sessions could be good entry points, although the sudden swerve into deep sf territory at the end of both might spoil them for people unfamiliar with the genre. Banks has wit and adventure, and there's a cinematic quality to his worldbuilding, so perhaps he'd suit for someone who liked sf films.
 
Dave, Conn AE35...
For me, there are many things a sf novel has to do well in order to be successful. It's not just the central premise, the idea. An interesting idea is a good start. But it has to be handled well, and the story has to be put together in such a way that it can only take place in the world of that idea. If you can transplant the entire story to another milieu - the old cowboys in space thing - then for me it has failed. But I also expect invention at every level. I expect to find evidence that the author has thought very carefully about their story and their world, that they've considered all the ramifications. Science fiction is not just about setting a story in the future, or sticking a spaceship in it.

What you are saying are what we expect from any kind of story. The writer has to craft the story in a way that you will enjoy reading.

Of course any great idea is ruined if the author cant put it to use well in a story,world.

Thats what i expect of classic,modern sf authors. If you are good enough it doesnt matter if the book is from the 40s or today.
 
But what about modern recommendations for readers of classic SF? Surely you would not recommend the same? They would be looking for new stuff that captured some of the magic that the classics did.
 
Modern SF recommendations (post 96)
- Altered Carbon - Morgan
- The Prefect - Reynolds
- Perdido Street Station - Mieville (maybe its not quite SF but if you haven't read it, you should)
- River of Gods - McDonald
- The Execution Channel - Macleod
- Glasshouse - Stross (or another one, depending on what appeals to you based on the blurbs)
- Old Man's War - Scalzi
- Pandora's Star - Hamilton
 
I still think 'Nightfall' is a vastly over-rated story - certainly not Asimov's best, and yet it was voted best ever sf short story prior to the Nebulas by the SFWA.

I think I would agree with you there. I can see it being representative of sf in one respect, however: it addresses some of the main concerns of much of sf -- the balance between science/knowledge and superstition/ignorance, with all the implications of that; a worldview based on knowledge gained through exploration and rigorous application of experimentation opposed to the more authoritarian, traditional worldview inherited from the past. And, of course, the lapsarian idea prevalent in so much sf that societies rise and fall frequently....

Still, I would put it somewhere below the mid-range of Asimov's tales in quality, and don't think it deserves (or can truly support) the sort of reputation it has.

John Clute has said that every sf novel contains three dates: the date it was written, the date it is set, and the date it is about. When the first two are effectively the same but are meant to be different... then the book fails for me.

This, I'd say, ties in well with various other points you've made about the writer depicting their milieu. And, of course, if the first two are too similar, then that does show a failure of imagination in various ways. However, I'm wary of being too pedantic about this, or the mistaken/outdated scientific or technological predictions, as I think this misses the point of sf as literature. To cite an extreme case: when I was working in a bookshop here, one of our regular customers was a big fan of sf, bought a large load of sf books each week. However, he couldn't enjoy any book where the science had been superseded. It completely killed it for him, no matter what or how great the other virtues of the tale were. This seems, to me, to be pedantry verging on making oneself blind.

The same, I think, is true of some of the instances you cite, such as the bit about computers and the like. If these are major plot-points, then yes, I would say there is a right to heavily criticize the writer. If they are incidentals and not particularly important to either the plot, character development, or the concerns the writer is addressing, then it becomes a minor flaw, nothing more. This sort of thing is common in all forms of literature, and the question is whether the work has other things which compensate for this. Enough such compensating factors, of course, makes it possible for a tale to make it into truly classic status (sf or no).

As for the sexism and such... well, that is also our current bugaboo, and I'm not at all sure it is a fair criticism of sf any more than it is of any other form of imaginative literature. If it is an unconscious thing, depicting the writer's own attitudes, it may well be a fair criticism. If, on the other hand, it is consciously used for the purpose of critiquing or satirizing such ideas and practices, that is another thing. Either way it, too, is often an incidental part of the work. A flaw, but not necessarily something which overrides the other qualities it may possess.

All this having been said, however, the better a writer is at overcoming these points, the better the work is likely to be as a whole. My caution is simply to not let such flaws necessarily debar suggesting such a piece even to a new reader of sff. Again, it depends on the individual to whom you are making the suggestion; if they have read a fair amount of other types of literature, from various periods, then such things are not likely to throw them or pull them out of the experience if the story itself still resonates with some aspect of the human experience. After all, sf is, as I've said elsewhere, simply another form of mythopoesis, and the heart of any good book is how it relates to being human and what insights the writer has to give on our shared experience.
 
Interesting article in the Guardian on Roger Zelazny's "This Immortal". Pertinent to this discussion because at the time seemed very hip and modern but now seems quite dated.

That article seems pure mainstream mag BS to me.

The Immortal isnt as read as Dune then it must be horrible passè,period piece.

The setting is never dated to me, its about the quality,how the writer comes over that hindrance. If Dune wasnt good, it would be more dated no matter how its set in alien worlds.

I read and enjoyed This Immortal, the post apocalyptic setting is used every day not only in cold war era.
 
Conn, Sam Jordison has been working his way through the Hugo winners and his comments have been anything but "pure mainstream mag BS". He thinks This Immortal is dated. I've not read it for decades. I expect it probably is dated. Read his other blog posts on Hugo winners before you condemn his opinion. Oh, and I expect he'll hate The Moon is a Harsh Mistress - but that's hardly surprising for someone who writes for the Grauniad...
 
Conn, Sam Jordison has been working his way through the Hugo winners and his comments have been anything but "pure mainstream mag BS". He thinks This Immortal is dated. I've not read it for decades. I expect it probably is dated. Read his other blog posts on Hugo winners before you condemn his opinion. Oh, and I expect he'll hate The Moon is a Harsh Mistress - but that's hardly surprising for someone who writes for the Grauniad...

I said why i didnt think it was dated. I read it a few weeks ago, i remember vividly,strongly.

You cant look at sf books by its settings to say its dated. J.D and even i said earlier today in this thread about the author overcoming things like settings that make a book look dated.

I dont read books hugo or nebula awards wise so i have no interest to read more articles of books i havent read. I find my way to classic books sampling authors now and then. I barely even know which of my favorite sf books of mine have won hugo 40-50 years ago.
 
I was browsing even further back through Ian's blog (yes, I really don't have anything better to do) and I came across yet another article that ends up bashing the classics:

It Doesn't Have To Be Right...: 100 Must-Argue Science Fiction Novels

This comment in particular got me thinking:
You, a science fiction fan since the age of eleven, may have fond memories of Asimov's Foundation - but does that really make it an appropriate example of science fiction to give to someone new to the genre?
It seems to me that Ian believes that many SF fans only regard the classics so highly because we read and liked them when we were really young (when we were less sophisticated critically) and now we have a rose-tinted, nostalgia ridden view of these books which are unlikely to impress a modern, adult reader new to the genre.

But that doesn't fit with my experience attall. As I've said previously, I never read any SF when I was young, I read mainly just fantasy. I've only really gotten into SF in the last few years and my gateway into SF was (by and large) the classics. I rate the classics highly with my adult and (comparitively) more sophisticated critical eye not because I have any fond memories of reading them in my youth but because I think they genuinely are good.

I think that I am probably more forgiving of old fashion social and cultural values being expressed, of obselete scientific ideas and even poor prose in SF than some modern readers might be. But I don't think I'm unique. Infact, I know I'm not unique because I've introduced people to SF with the classics successfully on several occaisions already.

Like I've said, Ian probably does have a point, but for some people the classics are a good entry point for SF, perhaps even a better entry point in some cases. It all depends on the individual of course.
 
Well, it's nice to know you only read my blog because you had nothing to better do :)

Thing is, I don't want people to have a poor opinion of science fiction, so I'm not willing to take a chance that they'll overlook "old fashion social and cultural values being expressed, of obsolete scientific ideas and even poor prose". I want them to admit that sf has produced works as valid as any other, that its best books are just that: best, not "best science fiction".
 
Unfortunately iansales, i think that people normally have their opinion of SF before reading any book or seeing any film. (Although i do think that most people secretly enjoy it, just don't take the plunge.)
 
i think that people normally have their opinion of SF before reading any book or seeing any film.
I think that is a fair point - ask someone in the street who the typical science fiction reader is and they would probably describe a young male, spotty, long-term single, introverted, anorak-wearing, train-spotting, collector of comics, stamps, action-figures or in some other way obsessive, unwashed, probably unshaven, possibly a student, and prone to dressing-up in costume. This is the image constantly presented by the media. If you have seen the film "Yes Man", they are the people at the 'Harry Potter-themed party'.

Now you may like to argue that there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of those things, but my own argument today is that that is not even the typical science fiction reader at all.

For a start, and quite apart from anything else, more and more science fiction readers (not to mention authors) are female. That is a whole other 50% of the population.

Also, books that are IMHO quite obviously Science Fiction are published as mainstream books and become best-sellers - I'm thinking "The Time Travellers Wife" by Audrey Niffenegger, "Never Let Me Go" by Kazuo Ishiguro, "The Road" by Cormac McCarthy and "Onyx and Crake" by Margaret Attwood. Note that these are not science fiction books, these are speculative fiction books! You could also include most of Michael Crichton's books.

People who would never read science fiction have probably read some speculative fiction.
 
As sf fan nothing makes me more sad than seeing how hard i have to recommend a great sf book but when i show them a generic epic fantasy book its very easy to make people read them.

The problem as i see about sf for new readers that they think its heavy high tech science that is not fun,alot of effort to read.

Which is why Dune is too easy to recommend i mean its a fantasy in an alien world. I dont recommend it anymore.
 
ask someone in the street who the typical science fiction reader is and they would probably describe a young male, spotty, long-term single, introverted, anorak-wearing, train-spotting, collector of comics, stamps, action-figures or in some other way obsessive, unwashed, probably unshaven

You say all that like it's a bad thing. :D
 
Looks like the Guardian's Sam Jordison quite liked "The moon is a harsh mistress" desipte the politics, see here.

I must admit that when I read E.E. Doc Smith's "Triplanetary" a few weeks ago I was hoping I would disagree with Ian's analysis of the Lensman series but I must admit that I am generally forced to agree for the most part. But I fail to see how he can label all books in this era "crap" nor put authors such as Heinlein or Asimov in the same boat as Smith.
 

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