Best title: "Sentinels of Miith" vs. "Bane of Miith" vs. "Miith's Bane"?

[The Judge]

I have to say I wasn't that keen on any of the new ideas.

The first 2 (Dominators and Archons) are OKish as book titles if, indeed, the book concerns dominators and/or archons, since they are does-what-it-says-on-the-tin titles ** but I wouldn't use them for a series. 3, 4 and 7 (Entropy, Black Stars and Chaos) sound like let's-try-and-think-of-an-intriguing-title titles, ie ones that are literal non-sense and have no connection to the book. 5 (Twilight) sounds like a 1940s-set film noir starring Robert Mitchum with femmes fatales all over the place. 6 (Sons of Darkness) is a little cliched. I did like the sound of 8 (Kenosis) but I hadn't the faintest idea what it meant and having looked it up, I can't say I'm overwhelmed by the concept - but if it has meaning within the context of the book, fair enough. Do you have enough religiously-overtoned titles for the rest of the trilogy though?

Hmmm. Fussy aren't I? (I like to think 'discerning'.) And this might be a gender thing as HareBrain and Ursa are both taken with the intriguing titles.

Is there a central character whose name or title might be used? cf The Archon or The Sentinel - ie just plain and simple - and giving Miith a miss (the planet does sound like someone with a lisp I'm afraid, so it would be a good idea to change it if you can).

Sorry to be so negative.

J

** Spectrum - this probably isn't intelligible to anyone who doesn't watch British TV. There's an advert for some DIY product and a very blokeish looking man stands there with a tin of it, reads out the name which is self-explanatory as to what it does and says 'it does what it says on the tin'. This has fast become a cliche to which I am abnormally drawn.

 

[HareBrain]

3, 4 and 7 (Entropy, Black Stars and Chaos) sound like let's-try-and-think-of-an-intriguing-title titles, ie ones that are literal non-sense and have no connection to the book.

I think that might be a little harsh, since Entropy's Avatar does have a literal meaning and I would assume has a relevant connection to the book. I appreciate that you were talking about the "feel" of it, but I think this particular one sounds too much like a specific character or power to fall into that trap - though maybe the others do.

However, Entropy's Avatar is perhaps a bit too reminiscent of Kushiel's Avatar. And I've gone off Kenosis since I looked it up.

Entropy's Face?
Entropy's Archon?
Entropy Zarcon?
Zarcon, Chaos Lord of Entropy?
Zaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrkkkkghhg!?

Interesting thread, this - I wonder how many people are happy with the current titles for their WIPs, and how much agonising went into them?

Edit: wasn't there a series of vastly successful early computer adventures called Zork? Did people not have to bother in those days, or what?

 

[Spectrum]

Kenosis (if possible without the "the").

Cool. I'll consider dropping "the".

The book in question deals with a concept inspired by and vaguely similar to the concept of Kenosis from Christian theology. (My work is not Christian-themed, very far from it in fact, but I steal cool and evocative concepts and imagery from theology and mythology whenever I can.)

3, 4 and 7 (Entropy, Black Stars and Chaos) sound like let's-try-and-think-of-an-intriguing-title titles, ie ones that are literal non-sense and have no connection to the book.

Entropy's Avatar and Chaos Empower are actually fairly accurate descriptions of the main plots of those books.

You're right about Black Stars' Enigma, to some extent. It is the name of a fictional Necronomicon-style book that plays a role in the story in question, which deals with enigmata somewhat related to some "black stars", but it's not particularly deep.

Is there a central character whose name or title might be used?

I don't have one main character. One of my major characters is Quessanth Ishnaruchaefir, whose titles include "the Destroyer" and "the Exile". "Destroyer" is quite generic, but I might be able to do something with "Exile".

Or what? Is "Exile" also a hated word nowadays?

** Spectrum - this probably isn't intelligible to anyone who doesn't watch British TV. There's an advert for some DIY product and a very blokeish looking man stands there with a tin of it, reads out the name which is self-explanatory as to what it does and says 'it does what it says on the tin'. This has fast become a cliche to which I am abnormally drawn.

Nah, it's perfectly intelligible. I read TV Tropes.

However, Entropy's Avatar is perhaps a bit too reminiscent of Kushiel's Avatar

This was brought up before. Someone mentioned that The Unspoken Covenant might be bad because it overlaps with The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. Do you people seriously fear that some readers might shy away from a title because it has a word in common with some other, well-known work? As I said, I am a bad judge of other people's reactions, but I can't imagine I would ever react like that.

 

[dustinzgirl]

Thanks for the replies.

I also have some more ideas for titles of series or books. The thread has shown that I am a bad judge of other people's reactions to titles, so I'd like some opinions on them too:

- Dominators of Miith
- Archons of Miith
- Entropy's Avatar
- Black Stars' Enigma
- Twilight Angel, Remember
- Sons of Darkess Rise
- Chaos Empower
- The Kenosis

I don't like any of those titles. They feel like random adjectives, and not descriptive of anything.

I tend to lean towards descriptive active titles for my favorites, like The Dragon Reborn; Dragons of Spring Dawning; The Hellbound Heart; The Robots of Dawn; The Dark Tower......

They have nouns and adjectives.

Why archons? Why not just Rulers? Why Kenosis? Why not just, Emptyness? Usually the simplest answer is the best one, and the most sellable one, too.

Dominators is not really a word, its an alien race from the DC Universe, or a few local baseball teams. Domination of Miith (why the 2 i's???) sounds much cooler, and I'd probably read that.

Entropy's Avatar---I'd like this, but my biggest problem with this title would be reading it outloud. Entropy's Avatar. Its just hard to say and not at all pretty. Yes, I like pretty words. Also, entropy is a term used in a lot of different types of theories, from thermodynamics to chaoticians, so I don't see how it can have an avatar, BUT as noted earlier the simplest answer is usually the best, something like Disorder's Avatar or something more definitive and not so loosely defined.

Black Stars' Enigma is OK, not great but decent, but you might be better served just dropping the black part, Stars' Enigma sounds perfect to my ears.

Twilight Angel, Remember. Honestly, this sounds like you are trying to cover up a cliche (twilight angel) with and addition (, Remember) so I don't like this one at all.

Sons of Darkness Rise is just bad grammar, but my favorite so far, but Sons of Darkness Rising sounds much better. Although I get it if Darkness Rise is an actual proper noun rather than a adjective-verb combo, it still sounds better. Or, Sons of Dark Rise, is much simpler also.

Chaos Empower---this just sounds like you are trying too hard and lack skill. What about Empowering Chaos? Its descriptive and active.

Anyways...just my thoughts, don't take them to heart.

 

[Ursa major]

Entropy's Avatar---I'd like this, but my biggest problem with this title would be reading it outloud. Entropy's Avatar. Its just hard to say and not at all pretty.

Perhaps it's because of the difference in our accents, Dusty, but I find Entropy's Avatar very easy to say; even out loud.

 

[Spectrum]

Sons of Darkness Rise is just bad grammar

What's wrong with the grammar? It is a sentence: "The sons of darkness are rising."

but Sons of Darkness Rising sounds much better.

Interesting. Does anyone else agree?

Chaos Empower---this just sounds like you are trying too hard and lack skill. What about Empowering Chaos? Its descriptive and active.

It is intended as a subjunctive: "May Chaos empower (us)". As in "long live the king". But I will consider if I can phrase it better.

 

[dustinzgirl]

What's wrong with the grammar? It is a sentence: "The sons of darkness are rising."


Interesting. Does anyone else agree?


It is intended as a subjunctive: "May Chaos empower (us)". As in "long live the king". But I will consider if I can phrase it better.

But Sons of Darkness Rise is NOT a sentence, or even part of a sentence. The sons of darkness are rising is a sentence, but not a book title.

You'll find nobody ever agrees with me. Its cuz I am from another planet.

I see what you are doing with Chaos Empower. I guess it could be a good book title.

I really think you should just name your books whatever you want without asking anyone. Because titles, for good or bad, are why good books never hit the best sellers list and crappy books do hit the best sellers list. For example, Eragon or Twilight---excellent, simple, catchy titles. Crappy books. Bleak House--terrible title, great story. There's lots of other bad titles with great stories I can't think of right now. About half of HP Lovecraft's titles come to mind, like Nyalth----whatever---.

 

[MistingWolf]

I enjoyed Eragon enough, but not so much the movie. Haven't read or seen Twilight, so I have no say there. But it does seem that books with small, simple titles catch. "Walking in Circles Before Lying Down" is an excellent book with a very long title, but it fits. You could name your something short and sweet, like "Dread" or something. I've had this problem. It was a few years ago that I also asked people online for help with a title, and one person really worked with me on it. Finally, he gave me my current title. I liked it, it fit in numerous ways, and so it stayed. :}

 

[HareBrain]

But Sons of Darkness Rise is NOT a sentence, or even part of a sentence. The sons of darkness are rising is a sentence, but not a book title.

What? It's got a subject and a verb - what more do you want? "Birds fly" is also a sentence.

However, as a sentence it makes little sense, since it implies that to rise is something Sons of Darkness do habitually. It could work as an imperative: "Sons of Darkness, Rise!" but I think it sounds more like a group of male children (probably hideously inbred) from a haunted hilltop house.

 

[The Judge]

I'm still having difficulty with Entropy's Avatar - how can 'Gradual Decline into Disorder's Computer-Graphic Character Representation' make immediate sense? Yes, I know that avatar has different meanings, and I too would have thought of the incarnation of an idea, or even a manifestation of a deity if it had been 'The Avatar of X'. I think it's the possessive apostrophe that screams computer game at me.

I disagree with DG about the grammar of Sons of Darkness Rise; I'm taking it that 'Sons of Darkness' is the noun+adjective and the 'Rise' refers back to the 'Sons' (ie the sons - who are of darkness - rise). 'Sons of Darkness Rising' only works if the 'Rising' refers to the 'Darkness' (ie the sons are of rising darkness or they live in a place called 'Darkness Rising'). I don't think the 'Rise' implies it's a continual thing they do, though I see why HareBrain says this. Either way, it still sounds a little cliched to me, though I prefer it to the more obscure ideas.

I have to say that I thought Chaos Empower was a mistake for 'Chaos Empowers', though I forebore from saying so first time round. I don't think it works as a subjunctive as it stands. 'Let Chaos Empower' doesn't do much for me though, either.

'Exile' is OK for me, but I'm not as well read in SFF as most of the people here, Spectrum, so I've no idea if it is used a lot in titles. I think the point HareBrain was making over 'Avatar' is that when there is a fairly unusual word which is fixed in people's minds to a particular story or author, its use can be problemmatical - hence the difficulty with 'Bane' that you started with.

I do agree with DG over short, simple catchy titles though. As I said before Kenosis has a very good feel, even if 99% of people wouldn't understand its meaning without checking. Is there going to be a trilogy? If so, I think it's helpful to link the names of the 3 books, so 'Kenosis' would be followed by other religious ideas; or 'The Archon' by 'The Exile' or something of that kind. Linking them all could be perhaps the name of the planet when you've settled on it like 'The Earth Story Trilogy'.

Helpful aren't we!!

J

 

[dustinzgirl]

Mabye I need a the, like The Sons of...

I don't know, lol!

 

[Ursa major]

If you want a snappier version of the darkness rising (i.e. more evocative of action than a simple description) - and I accept that the meaning is not the same - why not:

Sons of Darkness, Arise
​

with or without an exclamation mark (a symbol which is meant to be back in fashion, according to Writer's News).

I accept that we've now entered Dennis Wheatley territory (but then I was never that keen on the darkness title in the first place).

 

[Spectrum]

There's lots of other bad titles with great stories I can't think of right now. About half of HP Lovecraft's titles come to mind, like Nyalth----whatever---.

Hey, Nyarlathotep is a great title.

I'm still having difficulty with Entropy's Avatar - how can 'Gradual Decline into Disorder's Computer-Graphic Character Representation' make immediate sense? Yes, I know that avatar has different meanings, and I too would have thought of the incarnation of an idea, or even a manifestation of a deity if it had been 'The Avatar of X'. I think it's the possessive apostrophe that screams computer game at me.

I had considered The Avatar of Entropy, but I fear the "of"-genitive is overused, so I am leaning towards Entropy's Avatar instead.

Does anyone think (The) Avatar of Entropy would be better?

Also, there has been some debate about Sons of Darkness Rise. If I want to go with it, which variant would you people say is best?

- (The) Sons of Darkness Rise
- (The) Sons of Darkness Arise
- (The) Sons of Darkness Rising

Is there going to be a trilogy? If so, I think it's helpful to link the names of the 3 books, so 'Kenosis' would be followed by other religious ideas; or 'The Archon' by 'The Exile' or something of that kind. Linking them all could be perhaps the name of the planet when you've settled on it like 'The Earth Story Trilogy'.

Why does everyone assume that "series" means "trilogy"?

But yes, there will be a series. Currently I envision it as four books plus prequels. Now that you mention it, I have some other ideas for religious-themed titles I could use:

- (The) Resurrection
- (The) Apotheosis
- (The) Ascension or (The) Ascendancy

 

[Kissmequick]

Sons Of Darkness Rise is a good title - one that would make me pick it up off the shelf and have a look - which is the most important thing.

Most readers couldn't give a crap about whether it's grammatically correct in the grammar nazi way - only if it sounds intriguing

BTW, it could be a sentence / fragment - and what's wrong with that ?

Sons of Julia Rise - is also a sentence / fragment.

If you want to get arsy about it Lord of the Rings is a fragment.

ETA: yes, I know technically it's The Lord of the Rings. But who do you know who calls it that? No one I know. They say 'I watched Lord of the Rings last night.'

My point is readers don't give a crap - except that it's a title that makes them want to pick it up.

 

[JDP]

Spectrum, have you written the book yet? I'd take a word/phrase directly from the text for the title. It works for me

From the number of options that have emerged for your book's title, I'd suggest that this might be a good time to remember that 'art is not a democracy'. If you give a user group several options, it will often polarise opinion; whereas if you just say the title is X, then even the people who picked that option apart generally look more favourably on it (a sole option is seen as having greater credibility). Also, more often than not, how people think they'll react to something isn't actually how they react.

Are you looking to get this series commercially published? If so, your editor will likely change the title anyway if it's not as strong as it should be.

If you haven't written the book yet, write it and the title will likely become obvious to you