Fantasy vs Science Fiction: A Poll

[hopewrites]

I could have the opinion that what with all the objectivity that everyone has been so keen to have, that humanity doesn't really know what the heck to do with its emotional and irrational bits. That one's emotions are like any other bit needing conditioning and training to be used and experienced effectively.

But I'm tired and don't want to have that opinion today. It depresses me. So I'll chat up a cat, borrow some inner peace from a nearby flowering bush, and perhaps nap while contemplating the complexities of interconnectivity between human beings.

 

[Lafayette]

If you are trying to get away from most of the hardware and space operas of science-fiction try Clifford D. Simak. I believe in 'City' he has talking dogs. You may also want to try Ray Bradbury. I disliked Bradbury as a sf writer because he seldom spoke about the technical or hardware side of science.

 

[BionicGriff]

It was a tough pick for me, but ultimately I had to go with Sci Fi, though I really do enjoy both genres. I think the thing I like about Sci Fi, is that, as far fetched as a story may seem, often its not outside the realm of possibility. Using some classic, stereotypical versions of each genre (for simplicity), its safe to say that at no time in the past, nor in the future, are humans likely going to be able to use magic, find an enchanted sword in a forgotten dungeon, or make a trip to a goblin market in search of some magical trinkets. However, its really not possible to say that at some point, humanity will not be part of a United Federation of Planets, searching out new life and new civilizations, defending out planet from invading aliens, and participating in space battles aboard colossal space ships.

I understand these are only a few classic examples of scenarios within each genre, and there are plenty others that could go from one side to the other, but I think most people reading will get the point I'm trying to make.

Perhaps a simpler summary would be that its entirely possible that before I die, I could be cryogenicaly (sp?) frozen, only to be awoken in 2 or 3 hundred years aboard a star ship with whatever ailment I had healed, where I'll be able to explore the galaxy for the rest of my life.

 

[Lafayette]

Perhaps a simpler summary would be that its entirely possible that before I die, I could be cryogenicaly (sp?) frozen, only to be awoken in 2 or 3 hundred years aboard a star ship with whatever ailment I had healed, where I'll be able to explore the galaxy for the rest of my life.

I still prefer fantasy, but your reasons are pretty logical which may explain your preference. For science one needs to be logical. I'm not that good at science and when it comes to math forget about it. I don't think I have as much faith as you apparently have in science. Its been more than fifty years and they still have a cure muscular dystrophy.reason

 

[BionicGriff]

Perhaps a simpler summary would be that its entirely possible that before I die, I could be cryogenicaly (sp?) frozen, only to be awoken in 2 or 3 hundred years aboard a star ship with whatever ailment I had healed, where I'll be able to explore the galaxy for the rest of my life.

I still prefer fantasy, but your reasons are pretty logical which may explain your preference. For science one needs to be logical. I'm not that good at science and when it comes to math forget about it. I don't think I have as much faith as you apparently have in science. Its been more than fifty years and they still have a cure muscular dystrophy.reason

I hear you, I truthfully love both, and only chose one because the poll didn't give me an option for both. I don't know if I would necessarily say I have that much faith in science, but maybe hope would be the better term. My example about waking up hundreds of years in the future actually comes directly from an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where that exact scenario plays out. I always thought it would be awesome to wake up in that situation, aboard a starship, in a world where most of humanities problems (war, money, disease, etc) had been wiped out and people just worked towards living the best life they could, without the stresses of modern day life we have now.

 

[NbDawn]

I can't decide!

 

[Cathbad]

When in doubt, pick Fantasy.

 

[Victoria Silverwolf]

It's interesting that this poll has been going for quite a long time, and it's always been very close. That seems to me to be a good thing.

 

[RX-79G]

It's interesting that this poll has been going for quite a long time, and it's always been very close. That seems to me to be a good thing.

It might be inaccurate because sci fi people are over-represented on the internet while a good portion of fantasy people only interact at boffing tournaments and medieval fairs.

 

[Cathbad]

It might be inaccurate because sci fi people are over-represented on the internet while a good portion of fantasy people only interact at boffing tournaments and medieval fairs.

 

[psikeyhackr]

It's interesting that this poll has been going for quite a long time, and it's always been very close. That seems to me to be a good thing.

When people can get elected who say that Global Warming is a Chinese Hoax it's a bad thing.

I have watched people on the Internet talk about generation ships that rotate to produce gravity say that gravity was at the center and yet this is obviously not the case as described in Rendezvous with Rama. I find the supposed SF fans somewhat disappointing. I have tried Iain Banks and Ann Leckie and scenes involving gravity don't make sense. What kind of science fiction fans do not care about science? Many don't really read it any differently from fantasy. That is why the evenness of the scores makes sense but it doesn't really make sense to me that it should happen.

psik

 

[RX-79G]

I have tried Iain Banks and Ann Leckie and scenes involving gravity don't make sense.

Which Banks scene are you talking about? You aren't talking about the Algebraist, are you?

Most of the time when I see SF fans object to something science wise, they just missed the context or details. People are very quick to say "gotcha!"

 

[psikeyhackr]

Which Banks scene are you talking about? You aren't talking about the Algebraist, are you?

I have tried 4 of Banks books, finished 2, don't intend to try any more. Finished Player of Games and Look to Windward.

In Look to Windward a character is hanging upside down by his tail. This character was a human in some kind of modified body. The characte drops a 'stylo' and then waits a little while deciding what to do. A stylo is some implement that allows 3D drawing somehow so I presume it is something like a pen with added features. The character releases his grip and falls after the stylo can't catch up and then activates propellers on his ankles.

It is as a result of this fall that the character discovers some sick animal like a giant whale but much larger.

This entire incident occurs in an air sphere which I have never seen a good explanation for its creation and maintenence but I let that slide.

I went back and read this incident 3 or 4 times and concluded this cannot happen at Earth normal gravity. Up to that point there was nothing in the story indicating how strong the gravity field was. So I tried rerunning it at fractional G's. Regardless of the G forces the stylo should have less wind resistance than a person and Banks describes the characters clothing flapping in the wind of the fall.

It was researching these air-spheres on the Internet that confirmed the fractional G field but no information on what fraction. No explanation of the physics of air-spheres.

Niven's smoke ring in The Integral Trees has way more realism and he presents the information about the workings of the environment from the very beginning.

In a low gravity environment just walking is going to be different from walking in 1 G.

psik

 

[RX-79G]

Regardless of the G forces the stylo should have less wind resistance than a person and Banks describes the characters clothing flapping in the wind of the fall.

That isn't how terminal velocities for falling objects work. It isn't just density and aerodynamics, but size that matters. That's because larger objects have different ratios of mass to frontal area from smaller objects of the same shape and density, which is due to the fact that volume and frontal area/surface area do not have a geometric relationship. They are plots on a curve.

In this case, a person head down has a terminal velocity in 1G that is around 200mph, which also happens to be very close to a lead rifle bullet dropping. The lead bullet is more streamlined and has 11 times the density of a person, but the person has a higher mass to drag ratio because they are 5000 times heavier by don't have 5000 times the drag.

In the case of a stylo, pen or similar density object, the terminal velocity is going to be much lower than a bullet, and a head down skydiver would have little trouble catching one.

Cyclists usually become aware of this principle when they find that bigger riders go downhill faster, despite being in the same aerodynamic tuck as the smaller rider.


So in this case, your instinct for the physics involved was wrong, so it made you assume that the writer is wrong. But that description of objects falling is consistent with physics, so I would say Banks had it right, which illustrates my point about people being quick in assuming errors that actually end up being their own.


Did this misunderstanding on your part actually make the book not pleasurable to read?

 

[psikeyhackr]

That isn't how terminal velocities for falling objects work. It isn't just density and aerodynamics, but size that matters. That's because larger objects have different ratios of mass to frontal area from smaller objects of the same shape and density, which is due to the fact that volume and frontal area/surface area do not have a geometric relationship. They are plots on a curve.

Firearms expert Julian Hatcher studied falling bullets in the 1920s and calculated that .30 caliber rounds reach terminal velocities of 90 m/s (300 feet per second or 204 miles per hour). A bullet traveling at only 61 m/s (200 feet per second) to 100 m/s (330 feet per second) can penetrate human skin.

Google search: terminal velocity bullet

In stable, belly-to-earth position, terminal velocity is about 200 km/h (120 mph). Stable freefall head down position has a terminal speed of 240–290 km/h (around 150–180 mph). Further minimization of drag by streamlining the body allows for speeds in the vicinity of 480 km/h (300 mph).

Google search: terminal velocity skydiver

The character is described as having flapping clothing and had no reason to anticipate skydiving according to the story.

He used propellers:

974 Praf seemed to draw herself in, bringing her wings even closer to her body and stretching her neck. She gained very slightly on Uagen, starting to move past him downwards, then relaxed, and drifted back up. "I cannot go any faster."

"Right, then. I'll see you in a bit."

Uagen clicked a couple of buttons on his wrist. Tiny motors in his ankle bracelets swung out and revved up. "Keep clear!" he shouted to the Interpreter. The motors' propeller blades were expandable, and while he would not need much extra power to increase his rate of fall sufficiently to catch up with the stylo, he had a horror of accidentally mincing one of Yoleus' most trusted servants.

psik

 

[RX-79G]

Google search: terminal velocity bullet


Google search: terminal velocity skydiver

The character is described as having flapping clothing and had no reason to anticipate skydiving according to the story.

psik

Not sure what you're getting at, but the speeds you posted agree with mine - that even a lead "stylus" isn't going to drop much faster than a person who is in diving position, and the stylus isn't lead. So what is your objection?

 

[psikeyhackr]

Not sure what you're getting at, but the speeds you posted agree with mine - that even a lead "stylus" isn't going to drop much faster than a person who is in diving position, and the stylus isn't lead. So what is your objection?

The speeds I posted had the bullet falling 20 to 50 mph faster than a person except with deliberate streamlining which I presume would mean no flapping clothing.

The character should have known instantly that he could not catch the object. It had a significant head start because the character dithered. But then we don't learn about the propellers because the character did not use them for a while. So he should have turned on the propellers from the start. But what really annoys me is that Banks did nothing to let the reader know that it was a low gravity environment long before this action started.

This scene has the character falling for kilometers with limited visibility and not much thrust from these propellers. The low but unknown gravity may reduce the risks. Oh yeah, he has some kind of vacuum balloon.

psik

 

[RX-79G]

The speeds I posted had the bullet falling 20 to 50 mph faster than a person except with deliberate streamlining which I presume would mean no flapping clothing.

20 to 50 to catch a lead bullet, not a lightweight pen.

The actual story is about a very low gravity place where the terminal velocity of both the stylus and a person was probably under well 40 mph, since his clothes didn't even flap at first. In a situation like that it is going to be like chasing something underwater, not jumping out of plane.

But what really annoys me is that Banks did nothing to let the reader know that it was a low gravity environment long before this action started.

You would prefer that writers give you a nice, clear data dump instead of describing the environment through the action?

 

[Cathbad]

The character should have known instantly that he could not catch the object. It had a significant head start because the character dithered. But then we don't learn about the propellers because the character did not use them for a while. So he should have turned on the propellers from the start. But what really annoys me is that Banks did nothing to let the reader know that it was a low gravity environment long before this action started.

psik

Hey, if James Bond can catch up to a falling airplane, in gear with its propellers going, anything's possible!

 

[Lafayette]

If one has to be this brainy to enjoy science fiction then I'm not sure if I even want to try reading SF.

Strange I don't remember Dune or Ender's Game being difficult to understand and I enjoyed both.