Who is the Young Queen who is prophecised to be Cersei's downfall? #spoilers#

[JDP]

According to Maggie's prophecy, a Young Queen, more beautiful than herself, will take from Cersei all that she loves. Who do you think is the Young Queen?

Here are the options as I see them:

- Maegery
- Dany
- Myrcella
- Sansa
- Arianne Martell
- Jeyne Westerling

Maegery - As we know, Maegery is Cersei's suspect for the Young Queen. She's a Queen already, and certainly beautiful, but I don't think she's in a position to personally destroy Cersei... the prophecy makes me suspect that the Young Queen will have a personal interest in destroying her, and if it came via Maegery, I think the instigator would be her family.

Dany - Dany is, of course an obvious choice - a Queen, beautiful, and building an army to invade Westeros. It all adds up, yet I'm still dubious... I think Dany's fate is tied in with other prophecies, but not this one.

Myrcella - could Cersei's own daughter be the Young Queen? Will she be crowned after all at Sunspear, and once made a Queen, wage war against her brother?

Sansa - not yet a queen, but beautiful. My gut tells me that Sansa will be the Young Queen who systematically destroys all that Cersei holds dear. Crowned in the vale? Or Queen of the North? How far will Littlefinger raise her before she turns upon him? She certainly has reason to hate Cersei (though she might not know all the details yet).

Arianne - will Arianne be crowned the Dornish Queen, and wage war against the other Kingdoms? She certainly hates the Lannisters enough to want to punish Cersei.

Jeyne - a last minute entrant... could Robb's widow muster the strength to somehow destroy Cersei? Long shot, but what do you think?

So, who do you think is the Young Queen? Have I missed people? My money's on Sansa, though I'm not 100% sure why...

 

[Ghost of Harrenhal]

Dany, not a doubt in my mind.

 

[digs]

I like the Sansa option, if only because I think it would be awesome if Sansa became a major player like that (and I suspect she might), and because I feel that Dany and Margaery are too obvious as candidates. To me a good fantasy prophecy is one that is a tad obscure with a few red herrings thrown in, but who knows, maybe GRRM will go for the obvious with this one.

 

[Boaz]

Who do you think is the Young Queen?

Ser Loras.

Seriously, in addition to those on the list and in attempt to be completely thorough I'd add possible women who are younger than Cersei... Arya, Selyse, Asha, Shireen, Mya Stone, Val, Taena, Tysha, Brienne, Gilly, Melisandre, Sarella, and the other Sand Snakes.

Selyse and Shireen, as Stannis' wife and daughter, could still factor greatly in the struggle for the Iron Throne, but neither could ever be thought of as pretty.

Brienne's relationship with Jaime dovetails nicely to allow them to simultaneously be the Young Queen and Valonqar of Cersei's nightmares. Yet, we know that Brienne is the ugliest woman in the story.

Asha is a valuable piece in the Game, yet she's not as attractive as Cersei... at least in my book.

Gilly is almost the female version of Hodor.

Now only a few of these could be called more beautiful (or have the potential to be more beautiful) than Cersei... Arya, Val, Taena, Tysha, Mya, Mel, and the Sand Snakes.

Mya and the Sand Snakes are all illegitimately born. But Mya still has potential as Robert's *******. Don't even think that her origins are unknown to Littlefinger. He's keeping her close by as a potential piece in the Game.

Of the Sand Snakes, I think that Sarella is the only player. I know we may have not even seen her, but her vengeance seems to be taking a much more subtle form than that of Obara, Nym, and Tyene.

Val is a major piece in the Northern Game, but I don't know if that will translate to KL.

Taena is beautiful, but she's not about to become Queen.

Tysha was Tyrion's first wife and one true love. It has been mentioned that the whore that Dareon married might be Tysha. Mayhaps Tyrion will bring her with him when he returns to KL.

Melisandre's relationship with Stannis seems to be more intimate than just that of a normal counselor. If Selyse dies, then mayhaps Mel will become Stannis' Nissa Nissa.

Arya, whom Eddard claimed to be the spitting image of the beautiful Lyanna, is a very dangerous person for Cersei. Remember that Eddard told Arya that she'd marry a king but that Arya said, "No, that's Sansa." Well, GRRM likes to foreshadow and to set our expectations on their ears... so don't be surprised to find Arya a Queen. She may be the Third Head... she may have Tyrion father children on her. I also think it would be fun to have the spitting image of Lyanna (the woman that Robert loved, the woman whose name Robert whispered during his first time with Cersei) to be the one who overthrows Cersei.

Back to JDP's list, I think that Margaery is out if only because she is Cersei's prime suspect... and Cersei is wrong about everything, so she must be wrong about Margaery.

Dany is the most obvious choice. She's so obvious, and knowing GRRM's penchant for subltety, that many of us will scramble to find alternative Young Queens. But I don't know really how to adequately dismiss Dany. She's the frontrunner and will be until I've read ADWD.

Sansa is the next choice. She needs revenge upon Cersei more than anyone, including Margaery. She has the pedigree. She has the motive. And she's being trained.

Jeyne Westerling... I don't think so. She's a pawn to be moved among the Blackfish, the Freys, and the Lannisters. She does not have any real power base... and I'm including Bear Island and Greywater Watch.

Myrcella is a child. She has no cause to go against Cersei. The only chance she has to be the Young Queen is Arianne... and until Doran dies, Arianne is finished as a major player. Also, Myrcella's scar would seem to diminish her beauty.

Arianne is a match for Cersei... in brains. After her failed rebellion and Viserys' death, Doran may finally insist on her marriage. I see only two men that Arianne could marry and remain a player for the Iron Throne. Euron is one, but unfortunately for Arianne he has his eye set on Dany. The second is Lord Baelish. Littlefinger is Lord Paramount of the Trident (i.e. Lord of the Riverlands) and Lord Protector of the Vale. This makes him nominally the Lord of two of the Seven Kingdoms... theoretically more powerful than Eddard, Tywin, Stannis, or Renly ever was. If Littlefinger added Dorne by marriage, he'd be unrivaled... at least on paper... and Arianne could wreak vengeance upon House Lannister.

Margaery... I know I'm big on waffling, but it's so obvious that Margaery is not the Young Queen that I really wonder. What if Cersei was right for once in her life? Margaery is now a Queen thrice over! Yet she's not the Young Queen? In other threads, I've written how I think that Margaery may be one of the Heads of the Dragon... in which case she'd be a Queen for the fourth time.

My choices... Dany, Sansa, Arya, and Margaery as the longest of the long shots.

 

[TK-421]

Some previous threads:

The Valonqar

Cersei and Margaery what will happen?

Maggy the Frog

 

[C Of K]

Ser Loras.[/qupte]

ROTFL (I don't currently have enough wind in me to laugh out loud, so it's soundless mirth)

Jeyne Westerling... I don't think so. She's a pawn to be moved among the Blackfish, the Freys, and the Lannisters. She does not have any real power base... and I'm including Bear Island and Greywater Watch.

I might add that though Cat and Rob may have consider Jeyne "pretty" Jaime considered her somewhat less than beautiful. I don't see her as much of a candidate either.

'Course, "the Queen to be" in question could strip Cercei of her beauty and make her outside match her insides, in which case anyone of the women mentioned in this thread could be more beautiful.

 

[The Imp]

I think it's Dany since I believe that Dany will ultimately be on the Iron Throne after defeating the Lannisters. I see it as Dany, tyrion and jon uniting the forces below the wall fighting what will be the battle of ice and fire.

 

[City of Troy]

I don't understand how Brienne could become Queen... but I could see an argument made for her beauty surpassing Cersei's. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and who's opinion does Cersei value more than Jaime's? I could easily see Jaime calling Cersei ugly to her face, and finding beauty in Brienne.

Cersei: "How could you love her!? She must be the ugliest wench in the realm!"

Jaime: "There's at least one uglier... sister."

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

My guess is Dany. It's obvious there's going to be a return to the rightful royal family.

 

[Ghost of Harrenhal]

My reasoning for Dany is pretty simple and probably the same as everyone else's.. She is going to sit the Iron Throne eventually right? I mean as much as George likes to tug on our heart strings concerning major characters, the whole series has pretty much been about the return of the Targaryens. That's what Varys and all the intrigue at King's Landing has been about and it would pretty much round up every prophesy and foreshadowing the book has to offer. Dany would therefore likely take Cersei's place.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

The Ghost is right. Suppose Dany's brother (Viserys, right? I think so..) was on the money, and people are still sowing Targaryen flags? I mean, the Usurper wasn't called thus for a reason.

 

[allmenmustdie]

it may be Arya.

 

[Boaz]

Welcome, allmenmustdie... or should I say "Valar Morghulis"? I would not discount Arya either. Yes, Dany is the obvious choice. But she's so obvious that I begin to wonder if she's just a red herring.

Tywin and Cersei dreamed of her as Rhaegar's love. Well it seems that Rhaegar married Elia and then became enamored of Lyanna. Lyanna replaced Cersei in Rhaegar's life and love.

Lyanna was betrothed to Robert, yet after her death Robert wed Cersei. Cersei seemed to have replaced Lyanna in this situation, but on her wedding night Robert called out Lyanna's name. So in reality, Lyanna replaced Cersei as Robert's love.

So who could replace Cersei as Queen? How about the girl who is the spitting image of Lyanna? That would be Arya, for those of you keeping score.

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

I think the smart money has to be on Dany to replace our favorite fair haired queen. As has been noted by several folks already, Cersei thinks Margaery is the one she has to worry about, but Cersei is wrong about everything. To my mind, that alone knocks The Queen of Flowers out of the running.

Additionally, I think that Maggy's prophecy would implies that it will be a while before Cersei shuffles off her mortal coil...

Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Do we take this to mean that Tommen and Myrcella will both die before Cersei meets her end? I think it reads that way, which would imply that Cersei's not going anywhere any time soon... Tommen at least would seem to be in no immediate danger, and, therefore, we can assume that the queen regent has some some more time to mess things up.

I'd love for Sansa to finally do something useful and engineer Cersei's downfall, but I rather expect she'll have her hands full extricating herself from Littlefinger's clutches... and there would be something sweet about Cersei finding herself undone by a danger she never expecting, one she's been wholly ignorant of (in fact, that's kind of motif of the series, isn't it? While the realm bleeds over the iron throne the real danger is ignored in the North... Robb focuses all his energy on winning battles and loses the war for it...The loyal men of the Night's Watch ultimately did for Mormont, not the wildlings or the other... it wasn't The Wall or The Watch that defeated Mance Raider, but an army of southern knights he could have never anticipated).

It also occurs to me (and, I suppose, this is obvious... so for everyone quicker then me, bear with me) that Cersei has to stay alive for a while because she's our only POV in Kings Landing, at least until Jaime returns. She can't die until someone else gets back there to watch her death, no one dies in the own point of view chapter (save Cat, and that's obviously a special case).

I guess I'm getting rather far afield... sorry

 

[Boaz]

"Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,"

Excellent quote. Joffrey had a gold crown and a gold shroud. Tommen has his gold crown. Sorry, but I have to disagree with you... I'd say he's in immediate danger.

Does the prophecy neccessarily include Myrcella? If Cersei interprets Margaery as the Younger Queen because she has married both of Cersei's sons, then that might seem to rule out Myrcella's impending death. Their crowns and their shrouds only means at least two... Maggy might have meant only Cersei's boys. But then again Myrcella was hailed as Queen, though she was never crowned. And as you said, Cersei's wrong about everything... so it'd be a final blow to her to find out that Myrcella dies after her brothers.

Now as for ADWD, it won't contain any POV's from KL. TWOW will bring us back to KL (as far as I know)... and can't you just picture Margaery getting her own POV in KL? How about Qyburn or Taena?

Also, never apologize for getting far afield. Ideas must be spoken... connections must be made... theories must be banged out.

 

[Delran Stark]

GRRM said that AFFC focused mostly on the events in KL, and that ADWD will focus on events along the wall and across the sea. This might mean that we could also expect a few KL POV.

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

Boaz-

I think you're forgetting about the first part of the prophecy...

.. "Will the king and I have children?" she asked.
"Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you."
The old woman was not done with her, however. "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

That reads to me like all three Lannister bastards will have gold crowns and gold shrouds before someone chokes the last breath from her throat. Just because Cersei wouldn't even consider Myrcella doesn't mean that we should be neglect her.

(As a side note, where do you think the danger from Tommen comes from? Do you see a specific danger for him or just a generalized 'my mom's crazy, stupid, and power hungry and, therefore, likely to put me in an untenable position however unintentionally' thing? It seems to me that he's far more useful alive to the Tyrells certainly and pretty much anyone else who's interested in the use of power, rather then the appearance of it... Though it's not hard to imagine someone like Little Finger having him killed just to sow some chaos...)

As for the idea that Arya will be the young queen who replaces Cersei I just don't buy it (though props for teasing out all the Lyanna-Arya parallels)... The main argument for Arya seems to rest on the idea that it would be surprising if it proved to be her, but that, I think, misinterprets how this story has been structured pretty substantially...

There's nothing that's happened in the four books that's been really surprising in the 'just completely came out of nowhere' sense. To my mind the three most shocking moments in the books, the first time I read through, were (in no particular order) Neds death, The Red Wedding, and Lady's execution... But upon rereading, all of these could have been anticipated by a careful reader. The deaths of Ned and Lady were surprising because I didn't fully understand the world this series was living in, I hadn't internalized that the rules would be different from other fantasy series, that Ned wasn't going to be the hero of the story (and wouldn't be safe just because he was the hero in any case), that the brutal death of an undeserving pet was the sort of thing that happens in this world. And the red wedding, though it shocked me when I got there is actually very foreshadowed. I find it one of the more agonizing bits to get through when rereading because it's so damn obvious (in retrospect) what's coming, why doesn't anyone sense that something's wrong...

Martin is playing by rules, not just pulling rabbits out of his hat to shock and amaze us. So maybe Arya will prove to be a queen, 'younger and more beautiful' then Cersei ready to replace her, but it's hard for me to see how we get from here to there...

"I will be queen, though?" asked the younger her.
"Aye." Malice gleamed in Maggys yellow eyes. "Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

My reading on this (and I thought the text was more clearly on my side until I reread this section) is that Cersei will be replaced by another queen. It's not, I suppose, iron clad, but it does seem fairly clear in its implication. The prophecy is saying that Cersei will be supplanted, someone else will take the queenship and everything else she values.

While it's easy for me to imagine Arya killing Cersei (after all Cersei was on the list, and I'm firmly of the opinion that no one with that distinction will live to see the end of the series), it's very hard for me to imagine Arya as a queen replacing her. How does Cat of the Cannals become Queen Arya Stark? She has no power base at the moment and when she returns to Westeros who alive will be able to confirm her identity?

John's at the wall, Sansa's in hiding, Cat is an undead monster, everyone thinks the hound is dead and likely wouldn't believe him anyway, no more then they'd believe anyone from the Brotherhood Without Banners... So even if the next Arya chapter we see goes something like 'Arya woke up, her vision miraculously returned and decided it was time to head home. So she boarded a ship and sailed off to White Harbor.' What happens next? She can't rally The North to her, there's no one who can confirm her identity to marry her off to a powerful player? I just don't see any clear path for her to replace Cersei, kill her sure, but not replace her. Does Arya strike you as the sort who would want to be queen of the realm anyway. I think she'd much rather be the lady of Winterfell and never venture south of the trident as long as she lives.

I look forward to your thoughts...

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Illifer may be bereft of pennies, but not cleverness or logic. Everything you've said rings true to me.

 

[Clansman]

Welcome, Illifer. Seems to be an insightful post, to me. Arya may perhaps be the instrument by which Cersei is cast down by the up and coming Queen? To me, there are two possibilities: Danaerys, or Sansa.

 

[Boaz]

Boaz-

I think you're forgetting about the first part of the prophecy...

I've forgotten more than that... How else can I make outrageous claims?

I look forward to your thoughts...

You're the only one!

I just checked this thread before I ran out tonight to my book club... I'm sorry I don't have time to really read the whole post, but I will do so in about seven hours.