Who is the Young Queen who is prophecised to be Cersei's downfall? #spoilers#

[Delran Stark]

Welcome, Illifer. Seems to be an insightful post, to me. Arya may perhaps be the instrument by which Cersei is cast down by the up and coming Queen? To me, there are two possibilities: Danaerys, or Sansa.

It is quite obvious for Dany to replace Cersey, so I think we should not think about this yet. Dany may sit on the Iron thone by the end, but who knows what will happen until then? The Seven Kingdoms may be splitted and who knows if not one of their queens will overthrow Cersey. And there is also Margaery and Asha to consider.

Margaery, who is a queen already and is backed up by Highgarden and all it's might.

Asha, who still has something to say about the North and Iron Islands.

 

[Boaz]

Illifer, I never have more than one piece of evidence upon which I build my house of sand. I don't neccessarily think that Arya will be Queen, but I think that if Mirri's prophecy of Dany's infertility is correct, then she'll need a surrogate to bear her children... a female consort, if you will. Other posters are now groaning because I've posted this before. As you've already said, Arya will get no support from the North... so all her support would come from Dany. Jon seems to be a somewhat logical choice as Dany's male consort (the Dragon has three heads), so given his comments to Arya regarding different paths leading to the same castle and remembering all of Jon's romantic feelings for Ygritte ended up with comparisons to Arya.... then I don't think it's completely preposterous for Arya (the new and improved Lyanna) to take down Cersei.

But you've brought up a great point that the valonqar and the younger queen seem to be working in conjunction. So mayhaps we should be looking for the logical connections of girls to Cersei's brothers...

Jaime and Sansa. Can Brienne fulfill her quest and bring Sansa home or perhaps back to Jaime?

Tyrion and Dany. This seems the most obvious choice. Tyrion is headed to meet Dany now. Plus, I personally love the much pooh-poohed idea that Tyrion is Dany's ******* half-brother.

Tyrion and Arya. If the above scenario I laid out happens, trust Tyrion to be greasing the wheels.

Tyrion and Sansa. They are still legally married, even if both are hiding in exile. Many people are convinced that Sansa will overcome her childish fantasies of happily ever aftering with the most handsome and gallant knight and will embrace a disfigured man viewed as a monster... Tyrion or Sandor.

As for Tommen, I think he's in real danger. Yes, the Lannisters and Tyrells jealously guard him... because he's their only hold on the throne... their only hold on a united Westeros. If Tommen dies, who will sit the throne? One of Tommen's cousins... Daven, Martyn, Lancel? According to the law, Myrcella may not inherit the Throne. If Tommen dies, Stannis benefits... actually anyone who wants a disordered kingdom or an end of interference from KL will benefit. The Starks, Littlefinger, Dorne, the Iron Islands (Euron and Asha), Dany... the weakening of central government would also benefit the Faith of the Seven.

Do I know of any current plots against Tommen? No, but...

If Tommen dies, Dorne can proclaim Myrcella as Queen and bring the Lannisters over to their side. Where is Sarella and what is she doing?

If Tommen dies, can the Lannisters really deny Stannis' claim any longer? Melisandre's magics have a long range.

If Tommen dies, unified opposition to a Free Cities' financed invasion by Dany (allied either with the Iron Islands or Dorne) has a much better chance of success.

Of course I don't have any definitive answers or even guesses... I like to just discuss possibilities... I hate to be wrong.

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

Yeah, I actually quite like your Tyrion is a Targ theory. I'd be pretty shocked if it turned out to be right, but there's just textual support there (barely) to make it worth talking about. Plus if Tryion is a Targ, then that lets him off the hook for kin slaying and I'd love for the little guy to have something resembling a happy ending, something I don't think is in store for many kin slayers in Westeros.

I'm fascinated by the idea of Jaime and Sansa... Partly because it would really really satisfying for Sansa to be the young beautiful queen (I imagine her sweetly thanking Cersei for her service to the realm and ordering her back to live out her life in Casterly Rock, making clear her services will no longer be required at court, ever the proper lady while Cerseri seethes). How sweet would it be to see Sansa transform into a stone cold killer player of the game and take revenge for her whole family? Very Very sweet. But we could put together quite the depressing list of emotionally satisfying places we thought the series was going only to be rudely disappointed, actually that might make a good thread topic.


Given Sansa's ongoing transition from little fairy tale living girl to cynical woman Jaime is a really interesting partner for her. He is after the the beautiful ideal knight, the King Slayer personifies the lie of all those fairy tales. But, he's not really the King Slayer anymore, that arrogant dangerous empty man died when The Goat took his hand. Through his disfigurement and the loss of his knightly prowess, he's become a true knight...

I'm absolutely convinced that Jaime is the valonqar, it's just too neat not to tie together (5 minutes younger, Cersei fixated on Tyrion, the poisoning of the great love affair, it just feels totally right). Maybe we should be asking what could Cersei do to so provoke Jaime that he'd kill her? Does that give us any insight as to who will be replacing her?

 

[Lofwyr]

hmm...seems a long posting hiatus actually causes your account to get cancelled. Oh well, had to chime in here.

Illifer seems totally spot on. I've interpreted the Cersei timeline as something like - kids get crowned, kids die, she loses her royal position, Jaime strangles her.

I've been trying to think what would set Jaime off to actually kill her and how it would relate to the young queen. I'm thinking perhaps Jaime and the young queen actually have no real relationship. I could see Cersei, in her anger, grief and embarassment after being dethroned and losing her kids, saying something very offensive to Jaime and triggering the attack. Something like bad mouthing Brienne and questioning how Jaime can choose Brienne over her...how he can ignore the deaths of his children, etc. All of which eventually causes him to snap and choke.

 

[Boaz]

Lofwyr, welcome back.

There was the Great Server Crash of '08 (or was that '07) and maybe your account was lost then.

I also am leaning towards Jaime as the valonqar. The strongest reason is that Cersei is sure it's Tyrion... and Cersei is so often wrong about her visions of the future. The other reason is that Tyrion just killed Shae by strangulation and I think that GRRM made that an obvious red herring for us.

As for what could bring Jaime to kill Cersei... I respectfully beg to differ with you, Lofwyr. I think Jaime's changed radically from the impetuous narcissist who'd have murdered Robert at Darry and who flung Bran from that tower. I think he's trying (and succeeding) to get back to the naive and trusting young knight he started as.

What turned Jaime into a bad guy in the first place? Cersei? No. Tywin? No. Okay, Tywin forced Jaime into the lie regarding Tysha. It was Aerys' cruel insanity that forced Jaime's hand. Jaime witnessed Aerys murdering Lord Rickard, Brandon, and Brandon's friends. Jaime witnessed Aerys raping Queen Rhaella. Jaime witnessed Aerys disgracing Tywin. Surely, Jaime endured Aerys' japes about Tywin and reminders that Elia was chosen over Cersei. But none of that drove him to commit regicide... only Aerys' decision to murder every innocent, living soul in King's Landing caused Jaime to break his vow to the King.

Now, Jaime has witnessed Cersei bankrupting the Crown. He's seen her alienating allies. He's watched her turn the Small Council into a pack of court jesters. He knows she's slept with half the realm. He's endured her face slaps and derision. Jaime has seen her burn down the Tower of the Hand for spite. He's seen her allow the reformation of the military branch of the Faith. But he's not yet been driven to kill her.

I think that when Cersei orders the deaths of hundreds or thousands of innocents (or even one person... namely Brienne, Sansa, Rickon, or even Margaery) for pure spite, then Jaime will turn on Cersei. I'll bet he cries as he does it.

 

[Lofwyr]

I can't see anything Cersei does while "in office" being the final element to what causes Jaime to kill her. Based on Maggy's prophecies, Cersei is going to lose everything but her life to the Young Queen before she dies. So i tend to think that means her ability to deliver excessively petty and cruel punishments will be severely hampered.

I do sort of lean towards the final straw having to do with Brienne or Sansa. I just don't think it's necessarily going to be her ordering them killed or something. Part of why Jaime was so loyal when he was still the naive knight were his close family ties (namely his sister). Those bonds won't be there to hold him back when Cersei's time finally comes.

 

[Ursa major]

I imagine Cersei telling Jaime that, say, Joffrey was Tywin's son might up the stakes a bit.

(Not that I'm suggesting anything, you understand.)

 

[Boaz]

<Boaz splutters in total disbelief>

 

[Hilarious Joke]

Ha ha ha ha

.. "Will the king and I have children?" she asked.
"Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you."

Anyone want to have a crack and see how many of the sixteen you can name?

 

[Boaz]

Gendry.
Edric Storm.
Mya Stone.
Bella, a whore of Stoney Sept.
Barra, the murdered babe in King's Landing.
An unnamed daughter in Lannisport/Casterly Rock.

That's six... I'll leave the teen to you.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

Rickon...

 

[Eulalia]

Could it be that most of the prophecy is already true?

Joffrey has been crowned and dead. Tommen has been crowned and taken away (though he is not dead yet, things do not look good), and lost to the Tyrells. Cersei has lost Myrcella, and things don't look good for her either. Cersei has lost Jaime's love. She is losing her power, and I can't see her remaining regent for long. Queen Margaery is presently more beautiful and younger. Now if Jaime strangles her in order to spare her a burning death or something more grusome, this could all be over pretty fast!

 

[Hilarious Joke]

I really hope that Tommen doesn't die. I like that little guy.

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

Eulalia-

I actually think it's the Tyrell's who are in a tenuous position. Should Cersei survive her present ordeal (and a likely appearance of the QyBorg makes that a near certainty), I think she will redouble her efforts at asserting her control over the kingdom, and her first order of business will certainly be the elimination of the Tyrell influence at court. Their vassal lords are under attack by the Iron Born and you have to figure that Euron is going to sail circles around Mace Tyrell as that little war heats up. We already saw waht happened to a lord who can't protect his vassals as Robb lost the North... And I just can't past the feeling that Margaery can't be the young queen to replace Cersei because that what Cersei expects. In an odd way, the most shocking thing Martin could do here would be to have Cersei be right about something for once.

Boaz made a typically insightful point, noticing that it took Aerys planning to burn down all of kings landing in a fit of pique that drove Jaime to break his vows... I wouldn't be at all shocked to find him return to Kings Landing with his beloved sister taking a leading role in King Slayer 2: The Mad Queen.

I think his oath to Cat, not to take up arms against Stark or Tully will be the crux of his final break with Cersei. Jaime eloquently summed up his his dilemma in ACOK, 'no mater what you do you're forsaking one vow or another.' I thin he'll choose to keep the one he swore in Riverrun.

 

[Boaz]

In an odd way, the most shocking thing Martin could do here would be to have Cersei be right about something for once.

This would be perfect. Like a fatigued boxer, we keep slogging away assuming that Cersei is always wrong. Well, Martin might change tactics on us...

Boaz made a typically insightful point

I didn't mean to.

I think his oath to Cat, not to take up arms against Stark or Tully will be the crux of his final break with Cersei. Jaime eloquently summed up his his dilemma in ACOK, 'no mater what you do you're forsaking one vow or another.' I thin he'll choose to keep the one he swore in Riverrun.

Great point. Commanding Jaime to capture Sansa when she's revealed could be the final break between Jaime and Cersei.