Confidence and the fragility of a new project

Judge! I'm shocked!! There's more to a loving relationship than agreement on reading materials *snooty huff*

Yes. Respect. An unwillingness to cause hurt. Consideration for the other's feelings. Sympathy for the other's ambitions.

Also... pitching in with the laundry, the dishes, the grocery shopping, and the bill paying...

Actually re-reading Argosy's post I realise I may have asked the wrong question. If 'He killed the project I was working on when we met' means that when they met, he killed the project she was working on, (and not, at a later date he killed the project she had been working on for some time before they even met) the question should have been:

Why the &*^%$£* did you marry him???

J
 
Her Honour said:
More to the point, why are you still married?

Or 'How can two people with such a low level of communication co-ordinate well enough to organise a divorce?'

I've never even approached the no doubt enviable condition of matrimony, and don't have anyone I here who reads English well enough to understand anything I write; you lot here are the only feedback I'll get until I get something submittable.

That said, perhaps I'll go and put something in critiques.
 
My partner is first port of call for reading my drafts. She reads a lot, speaks three languages and can generally pick up the big errors in plotting at a first sweep. The thing is, she's not massively tasteful at times. If it's got the basic plot elements there, she'll go "yep, good times" and leave me to it.

My brother is second port of call. He's extremely critical, and can really zero in on things that just don't work, or are generally vague. I need a strong conviction that my drafts are as close as I can get to good before I send them off to him because he has no qualms about eviscerating my work. It's usually a phone conversation first to go over the main points, and then a detailed word document with comments plops into my inbox.

The thing is, I get too hung up on the small scale stuff. Right now I'm working on two long projects (one is looking to be 140 k, the other about 90 k) and we'll see how the feedback goes then. So far I've been bugging my girlfriend to read them every 10k, but I think she'd prefer to read even longer sections, or the entire thing in one go.

I'm not a big critiquer on the forum here, as I tend to find myself unable to really get into the story in such little chunks. I think I commented twice recently because the first was mostly just to say "practice, practice, practice" and the other to say "that's really good, I likes it".

That said, as the big works in progress...progress, I wouldn't mind seeing if there are a couple of people here also working towards polishes of their first drafts that would be willing to swap manuscripts with me and have a look over them as enthusiasts of the art. Anyone interested?
 
Thanks, HareBrain. :)

Why the &*^%$£* did you marry him???

Because...he was in a band. :rolleyes:

I was exaggerating his boorish qualities in an effort to be facetious. Of course he supports me...just clumsily. Actually, when his comments aren't directed at my writing (or my driving, or cooking), he's almost as funny as I am. "Nobody talks like that," has become something of a joke between us. It's the perfect, all-purpose critique for any occasion. "Nobody changes lanes like that." "Nobody saves seats like that." And the practical applications in the bedroom are endless.

Despite how thin-skinned I am, I survived six or seven writers' workshops through college and grad school. (English majors, ages 18-24. You can imagine the caliber of the critiques offered. We could have saved a lot of time by holding class around the fryer at McDonalds.) There was a lot of chaff mixed in with the wheat, of course. But I still clearly remember a lot of the commentary offered to me - more than I remember the writing projects they were associated with, actually. A lot of it was praise. Some people obviously didn't "get" what I was trying to do, so their comments were easy to set aside. (The feeling was usually mutual.) But the comments that really stung - that really stuck in my craw - were the comments that were dead on. The stuff that I already knew was wrong in the back of my mind, but I'd brushed aside.

I remember one incident. I was writing a story about a young woman - not unlike myself, coincidentally enough - who was in love with a gay man. (I know. I know. But mine was going to be original. :rolleyes:) I'd submitted a scene for critique where the main character was out on a date with a dude she didn't like and had resigned herself to sleeping with him. It was almost unanamously considered to be a problem: why would anyone go out with someone they don't really like...two or three times even...and then jump into bed with him?? It didn't make any sense! This plothole would need to be addressed. I nodded and pretended to take notes, of course. But I was baffled. I didn't think it was such an unimaginable situation. Women do that sometimes, right? Thankfully, one of the other girls in the class came to my defense. (Er...I mean to my story's defense.) "You're on autopilot. You go through the motions. You go after what you think you should want, instead of what you really want..." (Thank you!!) See...sometimes we don't really need an objective critique. We need therapy. :D

No...seriously. My point is that writing is very personal, so of course all this critiquing business is going to be a little bit (or a lot) painful. Critiquers, god bless 'em, are always so darn objective. We don't have that luxury with our own writing. The advice to not take the critiques personally is well meaning, but ultimately futile. Writers are really a kind of exhibistionists. It's the last frontier of privacy: the inner workings of our minds. We're laying bare our souls on the page. We're saying, "Here is the rest of me. This is the stuff I don't say outloud. This is what I'm hiding." Why do we do something so painful? I think because we are also trying to ask, "Do you understand? Am I the only one who sees this? Am I alone?"

We all want to understand each other. Just without all the adverbs and passive voice.
 
The advice to not take the critiques personally is well meaning, but ultimately futile. Writers are really a kind of exhibistionists. It's the last frontier of privacy: the inner workings of our minds. We're laying bare our souls on the page. We're saying, "Here is the rest of me. This is the stuff I don't say outloud. This is what I'm hiding." Why do we do something so painful? I think because we are also trying to ask, "Do you understand? Am I the only one who sees this? Am I alone?"

You don't have to bare your soul to find that criticism stings. The same things happens at design - and even code - reviews. (Code: algorithms, for goodness' sake. Not anything personal. Surely not.) But sometimes you can feel the tension in the room build. And it's because the writer of the code (or the design document) thinks that it's not just their output (their "baby") being criticised, but the way they produced it; their philosophy of production; them, in fact.

So when we receive criticism of something that might touch on the personal - the interior self, us - it's no surprise we find it hard to be objective. Of course, we are defensive. But we must rein it in if we are to improve.
 
..... Writers are really a kind of exhibistionists. It's the last frontier of privacy: the inner workings of our minds. We're laying bare our souls on the page. We're saying, "Here is the rest of me. This is the stuff I don't say outloud. This is what I'm hiding." Why do we do something so painful? I think because we are also trying to ask, "Do you understand? Am I the only one who sees this? Am I alone?"

We all want to understand each other. Just without all the adverbs and passive voice.

I don't think I've ever heard it said better or understood it more.

Thank you.
 
Critiquers, god bless 'em, are always so darn objective.

I have to disagree with you there. Critiquers have their prejudices, their tastes, their own ideas about what constitutes good writing. Most of the time they are more objective about our writing than we are, but sometimes not even that. Like all readers, they are likely to ignore or rationalize the faults in something that has enough of the things that they personally enjoy; and very quick to find fault with things that have a great deal of what they don't personally enjoy. Experienced critiquers are far better at overcoming these tendencies than other readers, but that doesn't mean that they don't cling the more tenaciously to the prejudices that remain. Fortunately, when you have several of people critiquing your work at once, such prejudices tend to cancel each other out.

In my opinion, it is always a mistake for beginning writers, or even semi-experienced writers, to give a brand-new project to other people to critique. It has nothing to do with crushing fragile confidence (anyone who lets their confidence be crushed by criticism of something they've barely worked on needs to get realistic about their abilities). But here is the thing, sometimes "this doesn't work" means "you haven't convinced me yet" or even "I am resistant to this, and you'll have to try a lot harder to sell me on this." Of course, sometimes it really does mean that it doesn't work. How can you know the difference? You can't know -- and it's possible they don't know -- if you've given them something that's so new you haven't had a chance to develop your ideas, if the whole thing is so tentative and formless that even you don't know where it is going.

But if you wait until you have something that has enough clarity and integrity in its overall conception (the minor stuff can still be as rough as rough), then you won't have a bunch of critiquers floundering around trying to figure out what the heck it actually is that you are trying to do, so they can make helpful comments accordingly -- and some sort of consensus should emerge about which parts "could be good, but we aren't convinced yet" and the parts that are so weak you probably should rethink them entirely.

Just my opinion, but I've seen too many new writers throw out idea after idea, and start the whole thing over again and again, because they always give up before they work any of those ideas through to the next step -- and never find out what the next step looks like or how to get there.


Writers are really a kind of exhibistionists. It's the last frontier of privacy: the inner workings of our minds. We're laying bare our souls on the page. We're saying, "Here is the rest of me. This is the stuff I don't say outloud.

I have to disagree again. Sometimes when someone begins a sentence with "writers are" I hear myself saying to myself, "not me." I was once on a panel with a famous writer, male, who said, "All writers are arrogant rapists." You should have seen how every other writer on that panel, female, raised her eyebrows as one.

So, yes, I think there probably are a lot of writers who are exhibitionists, but not all of us. Some of us are saying, "Here I am revealing all this about myself because I can't help writing this story that I want to share with you, but some of the most revealing parts are things I don't want to know about myself just yet --- which is why they are coming out quite unconsciously -- so please don't figure them out before I do. I mean, wouldn't it be nice if you just felt them and responded to them unconsciously, the same way that I'm doing now?"
 
Critiquers, god bless 'em, are always so darn objective.

Not really that objective - but much, much more so than your partner, family or friends are likely to be.

I've done a fair amount in my time in Critiques. I try to stick to the nuts and bolts rather than the story-flow or whatever. In the 3/3½ years I've been doing it, there are precisely 3 writers that I've stepped back from the computer and thought "Wow! That's excellent!" when I've first read the piece.
Most of the proffered excerpts are in the "Needs a fair bit of work, but there are glimmerings..." category.
There have been one or two where I was tempted to just say "Give up now and take up tropical fish-keeping or découpage instead."

The single thing that annoys me most is that so many people don't seem to have read the darn thing through after they've typed it in, but before they've posted it. This is just plain stupid - why go to all that effort and then not check it before posting?

But if I do critique your work - be assured that I will be honest, but never sarcastic - and I will give it the attention that you deserve for having the guts to put your work up to public view...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------​

"You", of course means "all members that post in Critiques" - not "you" meaning specifically anyone who's already posted in this thread...:D
 
Once again, have to remember to post before Teresa, otherwise I'll have no material, sigh...

When it comes to critiquing, I often find myself having to differentiate between the insightful and the idiosyncratic. A lot of issues people raise with a work are driven by personal taste, even if they sound like they are highlighting an objective shortcoming of the writing or story. Especially among writers, our opinions are dictated by our experience with the craft and choices we would have made or choices our favorite authors would have made. It can be dangerous even to take reasonable advice from a professional reader, no matter how high the price they are charging for their opinion...

Why?

Critiques of the same work often don't even agree with each other. You get contradicting advice all the time which leaves you either to pick and choose which critiques sound the most reasonable or to try to reconcile all the suggestions until you have a motley patchwork of sentences. From those I know who do like to garner opinions from readers, I often hear them suggest that you look for trends in the reviews. That can help to weed out the idiosyncratic advice and see the more consistent critique. Even agents constantly warn that they reject works based on personal preference and that, if it doesn't work for them, it does not mean it will not work for another agent. If you try to address all the suggestions of a critique, you'll end up making the perfect story for that one person.

My personal approach is to separate issues with the writing and issues with the story. I take comments about flow, structure, timing, diction, and consistency more seriously than opinions about characters, plot, and concept. If people read my work, I'm more interested in overall reactions than their page by page take on my story.

With regard to writers being exhibitionists (in RL or in our writing, I wonder), I think you can't write a meaningful story without putting yourself in it. In the end, everything created is created in the image of the creator. Yet there's a difference, in my opinion, between being present actively and passively in our writing. My thoughts and beliefs certainly show up in my writing, but it's more incidental than intentional. I don't put them there so that people can see what I've been dying to express but could never say. They're there because, for this piece of writing to have meaning to me, it has to be about me. It's not so much being an exhibitionists as dressing casually to a black tie affair.
 
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Most of the proffered excerpts are in the "Needs a fair bit of work, but there are glimmerings..." category.
There have been one or two where I was tempted to just say "Give up now and take up tropical fish-keeping or découpage instead."

But see, the first draft of the first book that I ever sold was definitely in the tropical fish (or decoupage) category. I know, because I've kept that draft, and look at it sometimes to remind me of just how bad it was.

Any critiquer in their right mind would have pointed at certain parts of it and said, "Lose this." But I worked on those parts and made them better, and other parts that might have looked more promising at the time -- because they were just that slight bit less wretched in the way I executed them -- turned out to useless. Fortunately, I knew how bad it was, and didn't show it to anyone. It's hard enough getting rid of something that doesn't belong when you think you've written that section rather well, and so much harder when somebody else tells you that it's the best part. I know I could never have done anything like that back then.

Later, I could hear what other people did or didn't like, and either recognize that it was very good advice (which it often was), or realize that someone else was trying to write my book for me.
 
But see, the first draft of the first book that I ever sold was definitely in the tropical fish (or decoupage) category. I know, because I've kept that draft, and look at it sometimes to remind me of just how bad it was.

Um...may I venture to suggest that you may not be looking at it with a completely unprejudiced eye - I'll lay odds that most of us would consider it a bit above the découpage level...
 
There have been one or two where I was tempted to just say "Give up now and take up tropical fish-keeping or découpage instead."

"You", of course means "all members that post in Critiques" - not "you" meaning specifically anyone who's already posted in this thread...:D

I bet I've been one of those people, or even though if you do not admit, that's what I think you lot are thinking.

My self-confidence should be well known for most who'd followed me. I very often think 'why am I even bother doing this', knowing how high the hill is. There isn't end on the sight. And every single time someone who post a well-crafted piece or even something on scifi I think them as my enemies.

Well, they are not.

Yet, like you 'dodgy old one' I give them my honest opinion and everything I've learned over the years. Often they spark negative comments, and sometimes 'thank you's.' I bet that there had been some saying 'How he dare ... that b*st*rd should go home and stick to ice-fishing!'

All I can say to you people, who have these 'self-confidence issues' is that 'if I can one day make it, then you lot should have much better chances!'

So, when you start a new project, keep on writing. Do not stop. Get to the end or at least to next draft version before you post it in here. Do what I do. Because when you start with new page at next day, you should scroll back and go over what you've wrote and then add the next lot. If you keep doing it, you'll learn editing and you'll get to the end without a writers block. Although, if you do get to the end, you ca admit that you're not completely sane. Not in normal people terms. Meaning those who don't bother with writing nor reading.
 
"Critiques ... often don't even agree with each other."

"Critiques of the same work often don't even agree with each other."

Um, Dante, I must agree.

Years ago, I submitted 'Weekend' to the same competition in successive years.

First time, the reviewer *apologised* for not being able to forward my amusing and well-written urban fantasy to second phase: The competition had simply attracted too many pro-level entries...

She pointed out some small sillies, which I fixed.

Second time, the reviewer savaged tale for (IIRC) scene-setting with a few words of intelligent affection between the yuppy protagonists, then switching tracks from back-story's tragic miscarriage...

Well, this is a nice couple, they've clawed clear of a cruel hit, they're going to a hotel for a romantic weekend-- And BadStuff happens, over which adversity they ultimately triumph.

Not my fault the second reviewer misread the first few lines as the start of a 'Woman'sOwn' weepie rather than a ticket to the Twilight Zone...

( If any-one is curious, I 'll PM link rather than inflict upon forum ;-)
 
I bet I've been one of those people, or even though if you do not admit, that's what I think you lot are thinking. ....

Gods, no, ctg - I was thinking of one or two pieces posted here that the average 7-year-old would be able to point out the basic problems with...there has been some stuff in Critiques that have been literally impossible to make sense of...

ctg said:
Yet, like you 'dodgy old one' I give them my honest opinion and everything I've learned over the years.

I never doubted it, and would expect no less - we may disagree over "show, don't tell", descriptive paragraphs and info dumps, but I'd never doubt the honesty in your critiques as you see it...
 
Gods, no, ctg - I was thinking of one or two pieces posted here that the average 7-year-old would be able to point out the basic problems with...there has been some stuff in Critiques that have been literally impossible to make sense of...

You know Great Old One, it's funny you say that. Recently one of my best friends came over and read piece of my work. He said, "You know, half a world population writes better English than you. You know, yours is like something we learned to write on third class. You're not really a writer."

I just couldn't argue against him. I had no words. No strength. Not even passion or that fierce temperament. I just simply admired his honesty or maybe some of you will say dishonesty.
 
He could well have been right. However much you practise, however good you get, every so often you just turn out the contents of a blocked toilet in a curry house. There's no logic behind it. Sometimes, you just fail.

Having said that, generally you do better than what pyan was referring to. I know what he means. Every so often there is something posted that makes every literary genius who ever lived simultaneously turn over in their grave. Then again, every so often a book is published and sold in great quantities that does this too.

No matter how crap you are, something you can get through on equal parts bluff and luck.

I find that inspiring. It's why I don't give up.
 
You know Great Old One, it's funny you say that. Recently one of my best friends came over and read piece of my work. He said, "You know, half a world population writes better English than you. You know, yours is like something we learned to write on third class. You're not really a writer."

I just couldn't argue against him. I had no words. No strength. Not even passion or that fierce temperament. I just simply admired his honesty or maybe some of you will say dishonesty.

But ctg, was he commenting on your English or on your writing?

It's true that your English is not wholly idiomatic - but since it is not your first language, that is hardly surprising. And the errors you make are usually fairly minor so that what you intend to say is easily understood. They're the kind of mistakes that will be picked up by having a native English reader trawl through your work for editing before you submit it anywhere. If your friend was talking about that aspect of your work, he was being very cruel.

As for the quality of your writing, I don't know what he was reading, but nothing you have ever posted on Chrons which I have seen comes into that description. I don't tend to critique your work because I'm a nit-picker and I don't feel that kind of critique would be terribly helpful to you. But your writing itself, your story and the way you handle your material, is infintely better than you (or he) seem to think.

Believe me, you write better English than most of the school leavers of today as far as I can see. And within my own family I can think of people who could learn from you.

You are a writer and don't let your friend - or your own lack of confidence - put you off.

J
 
You know Great Old One, it's funny you say that. Recently one of my best friends came over and read piece of my work. He said, "You know, half a world population writes better English than you. You know, yours is like something we learned to write on third class. You're not really a writer."
This is one of your best friends? Gods forbid your enemies should ever criticize you...
 
This is one of your best friends? Gods forbid your enemies should ever criticize you...

Thank you Sleeping One. He is one my best friends. Thing is, I know exactly why he said it. He misses me a great deal and knows that confidence is one of my big issues. So he wanted to put me off-track, leave England and go back to Finland to do 'puters. And he kind of succeeded in it. Like with what the Pelagic Argocy said, those close to us can inflict the deepest wounds. They might be jealous or whatever and when they say, what they say, we listen and take those words in our hearts. They like the dearest treasure to us because they've come from those we trust. We just don't want to believe that they are bitter poison.

Should an outsider say the same thing and we would probably shrug our shoulders and carry on thinking 'what an **sehole.' And there we shouldn't even have to lean on our stubborn side to get over the wounds to carry on with our art. And that was how I got over his words. I'm bloody stubborn.



PS. Thank you Judge ;)
 

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