Molly

[Darken Rahl]

I think Kettricken is Pack, but I wouldn't consider Dutiful to be so. For no logical reason except that Kettricken and Nighteyes hunted together on the Skill Road. I disagree with excluding the Fool, remembering the connection involving the Fool when Fitz heals Nighteyes. I for some reason think of Nighteyes being the deciding factor in defining the pack, I can't force myself to judge from Fitz's POV only. In that respect, I would only consider those that had developed a relationship with Nighteyes as well as Fitz. Still, that would include Dutiful as being Kettricken's offspring, wouldn't it? I hate it when my logic confuses me. Ok, so Dutiful and his offspring too.

 

[Rahl Windsong]

Well the only reason I had included Duitiful was the fact that he was actually offspring from Fitz when Verity took his body so that there would be someone after him to become king. I would concede that the Fool is pack except for the fact that in the end the Fool had to leave Fitz, was he then driven from the pack by means beyond his or Fitz's control? I suppose we could assume that. No wolf would leave his or her pack by choice that is the only reason I assumed the Fool never really was pack. How could any of the pack be "scentless"?

Rahl

PS: I suppose I have dragged this topic off its original course with my talk of pack but I really do feel that is the reason Molly is the only woman for Fitz.

 

[rune]

I hadn't looked into the theme of who was Pack and who wasn't. Amazing were these discussion lead


I think Fool was part of the Pack with Fitz and Nighteyes because Fool helped pull Fitz back when he healed Nighteyes. I also remember many references from Nighteyes about Fool, and wonder if Nighteyes also saw him as Pack

 

[Rahl Windsong]

The only way I will concede the point that the Fool is pack is if Robin writes another book about the Farseer line and the Fool returns to the pack. The fact that he had to leave makes me see him as not being pack. This means his destiny was much different, in fact so different he could not remain with the pack and therefore he can not be pack or his destiny would have been to remain with the rest of them. I think even the Fool would agree with me...again my oppinion.

Rahl

 

[rune]

The only way I will concede the point that the Fool is pack is if Robin writes another book about the Farseer line and the Fool returns to the pack. The fact that he had to leave makes me see him as not being pack. This means his destiny was much different, in fact so different he could not remain with the pack and therefore he can not be pack or his destiny would have been to remain with the rest of them. I think even the Fool would agree with me...again my oppinion.

Rahl

Ah, I love this So good to get into a discussion about the nitty gritty of a book. Not to mention how interesting it is to see how others have perceived the same works and feel differently about it

I feel the Pack is not the same as the group that Fitz works with when developing the Prince's gifts. That to me is a different thing.
The Pack, for me, is more to do with the bond between Fitz and Nighteyes and only the Fool ever touched that bond when he pulled Fitz back when he healed Nighteyes

 

[Rahl Windsong]

Yes but it was Nighteyes who told Fitz that Burrich was "Heart of the Pack". So according to Nigheyes if Burrich was the heart of the pack this would make any offspring, and anyone he mated with, also pack. Plus any offspring Fitz had would automatically be pack according to the rules of the pack. Duitiful is really offspring from Fitz when Verity took his body to get Kettricken pregnant so he could give himself to the stone dragon. Nettle was Fitz's child from Molly so both of them are pack, and I am still holding out that the Fool is not pack. In essence Fitz did mate with Kettricken do she was pack.

To me the Fool was more then that, he was the White Prophet and Fitz was his Catalyst, the changer. It was Fitz, and the fact that he was the changer, that prevented the Fool from being pack because if he was pack I don't think he could have been the White Prophet that changed the destiny of the Six Duchies. In my mind this was proven when, at the end, the Fool had to leave Fitz because he could no longer see what changes he would make and therefore he had fulfilled all his prophecies with Fitz and Fitz was no longer his Catalyst. Nighteyes recognized the siginficance of the Fool and only the Fool's love for Fitz and his wolf allowed him to help heal Nighteyes, not because he was pack.

Ok well I used the word "was" a few too many times but my point was ....my own! And yes I do love this discussion!

So there you have it!

Rahl

PS: The real question here though is...If Fitz told Molly that Duitful is his offspring, would she leave him for bedding Kettricken? Oh my god! thats a good one!

 

[Darken Rahl]

Yes but it was Nighteyes who told Fitz that Burrich was "Heart of the Pack".

Whoa! Time out! IIRC Nighteyes tells Fitz that that is what the hounds in the kennels / stables name Burrich. Heart of the Pack is a name, not his position. However, I included Burrich for his relationships with the others of the pack. He is not the leader, rather more of the Old Wolf Grandfather. Kin, not King if you will.

 

[rune]

PS: The real question here though is...If Fitz told Molly that Duitful is his offspring, would she leave him for bedding Kettricken? Oh my god! thats a good one
Firstly, good to see readers so enthusiastic about the books they read
I can see your point of view about the relationship between Fitz and the Fool. Good point.


However, here's the next debate. Would Molly have dumped Fitz if he'd known he was used to get Kettrichen with child?
I think she would have left him because she wouldnt understand now Fitz was used.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I'll have to agree that Molly just didn't quite do it for me. She was just a little too bitter, and in the beginning when she and Fitz were together, I didn't like it at all. It didn't feel right. But that was because it wasn't right, back then. Fitz had his life ahead of him, and you could tell from the start that he was meant for other things than settling down with the woman he loved. His life and his loyalties went in too many directions.

However, at the end, it did make me happy to see him be able to kick his boots off and have a life that was completely his own. There was so much loneliness, pain and tragedy in his life that it would have been heartbreaking to end the his story with nothing resolved. Sure, he'll have a few nightmares from time to time, and he'll miss the Fool and Nighteyes- who wouldn't? Now, though, he can share his life with someone without always feeling on edge, without the constant worry of losing them, and without any criticism or hatred from people who just don't understand. It's the best thing that could have happened to him, in the end, to be "put out to pasture," as they say.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

PS: The real question here though is...If Fitz told Molly that Duitful is his offspring, would she leave him for bedding Kettricken? Oh my god! thats a good one
Firstly, good to see readers so enthusiastic about the books they read
I can see your point of view about the relationship between Fitz and the Fool. Good point.


However, here's the next debate. Would Molly have dumped Fitz if he'd known he was used to get Kettrichen with child?
I think she would have left him because she wouldnt understand now Fitz was used.

At this point, I don't think that Molly would have any room to judge Fitz- she ran off with his father-figure, after all, and they had many kids of their own. Fitz's involvement with Kettricken was for the entire country, while Molly's involvement with Burrich was for much more selfish reasons.

 

[rune]

At this point, I don't think that Molly would have any room to judge Fitz- she ran off with his father-figure, after all, and they had many kids of their own. Fitz's involvement with Kettricken was for the entire country, while Molly's involvement with Burrich was for much more selfish reasons.

We didnt know Molly had ran off with Fitz adoptive father at the time that Kettricken conceived.

 

[Neon]

Regarding the Fool and the pack, I don't believe the Fool ever thought of himself as being part of it (and hence was not pack). He was always an outsider, as the role of being White Prophet demanded. The fact he could turn away from everyone at the end of the book shows he was never fully part of their group. He had to go live his own life, away from everyone else even though he was no longer a prophet. Part of his reason for leaving was to help Fitz separate their love for each other from the life Fitz could potentially lead. This included the love for Molly, who is a part of the pack. The only way Fitz could be intent in life was to fully join with the pack and leave the Fool behind.

Apart from that, the Fool's very being prevented him from being pack. He was an enigma to the wit sense and a complete alien to other human/animal senses.

 

[Alexa]

I agree with rune, Molly could not accept or understand the relation between Fitz and Kettricken. The jealousy she'll feel the moment of finding the truth, would be to strong to be reasoned with. Remember she left Fitz without telling him she was pregnant ?

I believe the Fool was a part of the pack as Nighteyes accepted him like one. The Fool's destiny could not be fulfiled without Fitz and Fitz without Nighteyes.

 

[Neon]

I always secretly wished Fitz and Kettricken would get a romance. It seems they were pretty close anyway, and I liked her better than Molly. But at least Fitz got some type of happy ending (for once).

 

[Alexa]

I thought about that, too, but then I thought of Verity. He deserved to have a Queen like Kettricken. And Fitz loved Verity like his own father. He couldn't get involved with Kettricken, without feeling betrayal vs Verity. On the other hand, we know Kettricken really loved Verity, despite his obssesion of his Skill.

 

[Sketti]

I hated Molly. I really did. Yeah, I agree that Fitz needed her for peace of mind but I think he'd have been better off staying with the Fool. Their connection was much more powerful than the one that drew him to Molly. I think that, had he not promised to take care of Molly and the kids, he would have preferred going with the Fool. Not necessarily as lovers but close companions. I disagree on the "Molly was part of the pack", I don't think she ever fit in. I think the "pack" was Fitz, Nighteyes and Fool. I think Hobb just chickened out of giving the series an ambiguously gay (at best) ending because of worrying what it might do to sales or her reputation. Maybe it was her editor, I don't know. But I was very disapointed with the end. The Tawny Man series was very emotionally intense and took the characters to levels I haven't seen many authors take them and the end strikes me an attempt to make everything "right" and "proper" and "as it should be".

 

[Rahl Windsong]

I hated Molly. I really did. Yeah, I agree that Fitz needed her for peace of mind but I think he'd have been better off staying with the Fool. Their connection was much more powerful than the one that drew him to Molly. I think that, had he not promised to take care of Molly and the kids, he would have preferred going with the Fool. Not necessarily as lovers but close companions. I disagree on the "Molly was part of the pack", I don't think she ever fit in. I think the "pack" was Fitz, Nighteyes and Fool. I think Hobb just chickened out of giving the series an ambiguously gay (at best) ending because of worrying what it might do to sales or her reputation. Maybe it was her editor, I don't know. But I was very disapointed with the end. The Tawny Man series was very emotionally intense and took the characters to levels I haven't seen many authors take them and the end strikes me an attempt to make everything "right" and "proper" and "as it should be".

There really was no other ending possible at that point, at least that is my oppinion. Any other ending would have left the story open for future books and Robin has stated several times that she is finished with those characters in her writing. The ending was neither "right", "proper", nor "as it should be" it was really the only way to say THE END and mean it.

The character Fitz is so not gay that there was no way for him to be "in love" with The Fool in any sort of romantic way, though he did love him. Therefore there was no other ending possible that fit with Fitz's character and with The Fool, at least that is my oppinion. I never once, in any of the books, got the feeling that Fitz was gay, in fact quite the opposite.

Rahl

 

[Wifeygirl]

**Spoiler** Fitz and the Fool

***Spoiler!!****


I have to agree with those here that wished that Fitz and the Fool ended up together rather than Fitz and Molly.

Molly wasn't even a character in these last 3 books! By the end of the Tawny Man series, I couldn't care less about Molly. I agree with the previous comments that she was always separate from Fitz' life. She never really knew him as he was. I was so certain that Fitz had moved on - I know I had! It was a real disappointment to me that she suddenly reappeared.

Fitz and the Fool's relationship was so deep and complex, so fraught with layers of love and hardship...I was reading the whole time hoping against hope that they would end up together somehow. I was certain that when the hedge witch said that a love would wind itself throughout Fitz' days, it was the love of the Fool. Molly didn't wind throughout - she was there for several books, then completely gone.

I also really didn't buy the Fool's excuse for leaving. So he no longer prophecied past the point of his death. The world no longer needed to be "bumped" into the right course. To me, this finally provided the opportunity for Fitz and the Fool to be together without the complications that have riddled their relationship up until now. I know that other posts deal more with the Fool's gender, but with all of the femininity and the little hints scattered here and there, I hoped that the Fool would end up being female and they could love each other romantically as well. At the very least, I wanted a more substantial ending to such an incredible, powerful relationship. The fact that Fitz does another one of his "I'll talk to him about it later" routines and they never get to have a final, deep conversation where they talk about their love for each other really bummed me out.

 

[ScottSF]

I was completel shocked when molly came back in the picture at the end. I really thought the fool was going to turn out to be a woman and that's where the romance was. They resolved the fool situation well, but throwing molly back in just felt unnatural.

 

[jackokent]

I didn't like Molly, she seemed sour and disproving, not sure what there was to like. I don't recall seeing many flashes of understanding or kindness from her to Fitz and I always wondered why he bothered. In my eyes it undermined him slightly as I thought he'd have better tast.

To me the whole relationship seemed forced. I didn't see or feel anything romantic. I know Fitz kept thinking about her etc, but I kept thinking why. If a nagging, bad tempered hen was what he needed for stability then fine, but I still think he would have been better off with the fool, man or woman.