That darn wall, can't be that tall.........

[rai]

I know it's fantasy meaning dragons can fly, breath fire etc.

OK it's make believe but it's not like it's a totally un-real world, in many regards it's trying to be a real world.

So how it is possible for a wall made of snow or ice to be so big? I mean ice/snow is compressible and it will move if it has too much weight on it and probably not stable at all.

I guess it's time to turn off my belivability meter but come several hundred feet tall ice wall

It's too late now and far be it from me to give Mr Martin advice but IMO better if there had been a rocky gap or something like that.

 

[Ghost of Harrenhal]

A rocky gap? Somehow I don't think that would fit in as well with the whole idea of Ice and Fire...

And you know, I don't even think the idea of a wall of ice is so far fetched, in truth. Sure a large structure made of ice might be unstable but there is a point where it just becomes SO large that nothing will shift or break it, not even gravity.

Besides, the Wall didn't just come into being. Brandon the Builder raised the original wall which I think was a mixture of rock and ice and then every Lord Commander of the Night's Watch raised it (I guess by freezing water and ground rocks together on top like some kind of weird Arctic mortar?). Doesn't sound too far fetched to me, not in a land where your spit freezes before it hits the ground and nothing ever has a chance to melt unless heated by men.

The Wall was never something I questioned, I must admit. I just believed it.

 

[rai]

thanks for the reply.

I am not an engineer or anything, but am a science major and I know some things about construction.

One main point is Ice is compressible, meaning if you apply pressure to it will compact. For example take an ice cube and crush it between your teeth. You will also see that ice is not very strong. It will crush up very easy. If you have 300 feet of ice on top, of a wall the pressure will be enormous something like 150+ PSI on the lower part.

Stone is stronger and does not compress as easily but even so buildings were never that tall until something like the turn of the 20th century when they got a steel structure. There are no 400 foot tall stone buildings (or walls) anywhere the weight would be enourmous.

Another thing, pressure (weight) raises temp which would cause ice to melt. Melting of ice under pressure is one reason why glaciers move.

 

[rai]

Wiki 'Glacier'

...ice behaves like an easily breaking solid until it's thickness exceeds 160 feet where the pressure deeper than that depth causes 'plastic flow'


(the weight/pressure of the tall ice wall would make the lower section become like a thick liquid).

 

[Hilarious Joke]

But...but...but...

Damn now you've ruined the Wall for me. Can some engineer please argue with Rai?

 

[Boaz]

rai, thanks for the info. I'm always glad to learn factoids... I don't really want to understand the entire process, just the basic facts.

As an amateur student of Roman and Chinese history, their walls have intrigued me. I've been to the Great Wall of China in '87 and '92. The really cool thing about that wall is that it's built on the tops of mountain ridges. Invaders had to cross mountains, then charge up a steep slope of a mile or more just to face a twenty to forty foot vertical stone wall. China successfully defended the wall for thousands of years... it's just that the invaders learned to bribe underpaid garrisons to gain easy access into Northern China.

Anyway, remember how Sam could pass under the Wall and open that gate? The Wall holds some magic in it's foundations that protects the South from supernatural evil. I don't have any evidence for it, but I believe that this magic also supports the Wall being eight hundred feet high. Somehow this compacted ice melts and is fused to the magic foundations to bring the newer construction in line with the ancient wall.

 

[Urien]

It has to be magic, the physics is wrong... wrong I tell ya.

Prove it someone says... can't I say (without redoing my school science)... so I kick a stone and trundle away, muttering.

 

[Ghost of Harrenhal]

Yeah, like you said in your original comment, it's fantasy and dragons can breathe fire. I'd just roll with it.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Aren't there sheets of ice in Antarctica many hundreds of feet thick? I think there are.

As to the construction of the Wall, they say that the Lords Commander cut giant blocks of ice out of nearby lakes to build the Wall higher.

Why would you pick the Wall, though? Why not dragons, or unicorns, or alchemy, or shadow-binders and warlocks, or the fact that the seasons last for years, or the Others, or the lack of genetics?

 

[Ursa major]

...or the prophecies....

 

[Boaz]

...or The Sword of Shanarra...

 

[rai]

Aren't there sheets of ice in Antarctica many hundreds of feet thick? I think there are.

there are sheets of ice in antartica that are miles thick, but those are just that sheets of ice they are hundreds of miles wide they do not have to support their tall weight while being a couple hundred feet wide.

Why would you pick the Wall, though? Why not dragons, or unicorns, or alchemy, or shadow-binders and warlocks, or the fact that the seasons last for years, or the Others, or the lack of genetics?

I picked the wall because although this is a magical world some things are mundane such as people have to eat or go to the bathroom etc.. so some things are natural, not like a unicorn or a dragon. I thought the wall was supposed to be somewhat natural like the pyramids here on earth. So I was wondering how/if it could be.

 

[Ursa major]

I can't see how anyone would think a wall of the scale GRRM describes could be thought of as other than super-natural.

When first reading of its size, I began wondering what on Earth (or Westeros) was so dangerous that it needed such a formidable wall to keep it out (possibly prompted by memories of the wall in King Kong). I then wondered why, if something was so (relatively) big - I'm a simple soul - it didn't simply wade through the sea at one end of the wall or the other. I then kind of assumed there was something beyond the natural at work, more than just the stone and the ice.

 

[rai]

I can't see how anyone would think a wall of the scale GRRM describes could be thought of as other than super-natural.

When first reading of its size, I began wondering what on Earth (or Westeros) was so dangerous that it needed such a formidable wall to keep it out (possibly prompted by memories of the wall in King Kong). I then wondered why, if something was so (relatively) big - I'm a simple soul - it didn't simply wade through the sea at one end of the wall or the other. I then kind of assumed there was something beyond the natural at work, more than just the stone and the ice.

good point especially about King Kong.

I wonder why it needed to be 800 feet tall? I mean why not 8,000 feet tall? either would be way overkill and less belivable the taller it goes.

I have not read all the books yet so I don't know how pertanant the wall is, but for me the whole 'North' aspect of it is weak, I prefer the more 'normal' kings and queens parts, I am not too thrilled about the dragons either for that matter but that's another discussion..

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I see. I think you would be more interested in historical fiction.

 

[rai]

I see. I think you would be more interested in historical fiction.

I don't say I dislike GRRM stuff but yea sometimes less is more. I mean like one of my favorite books 'Moby Dick', everything is real except the whale is exaggerated for effect.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I happen to think that the fantastic elements are quite well done in ASoIaF. There hasn't been anything to date that I thought was over-the-top or excessively "magical" for the setting.

 

[Ursa major]

It looks as if rai suspects that Melville's successful combining of realism and fantasy in Moby Dick may have been a fluke.

 

[viZion]

I see. I think you would be more interested in historical fiction.

Ugh. Don't use the "if you don't like it go read something else" argument. It *is* ok to criticize or question GRRM, ASOIAF, or anything else you love and still be a fan of it. Blind, zealous, fanboi, and complete acceptance of everything GRRM-related does just doesn't make sense to me I guess.

I thought it was a pretty good question and he backed it up with scientific facts which was interesting as well. However, we do know that the Wall has been imbued with some magic so I guess it isn't a stretch to imagine that the magic helps keep it together as well. The Horn of Winter is supposed to be able to break that magic and bring down the wall. Mance doesn't use the Horn because he knows that's the only thing standing between the world and the Others.

As to the question of why it's so tall, it's because the Others are Bad Things. It could be a typical human overreaction. I mean, let's say a wall of 20 feet is good enough to keep out the Others. Us humans would never stop there. The bigger, the better, and the safer we feel.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I said that because he didn't appear interested in discussing the limits of the acceptable use of fantastic elements in an otherwise realistic historical fiction, as I pointed out earlier in the even more blatant things he was ignoring, but instead focused one element to nitpick about.

I'm all for criticism, but to me, if you aren't going to present a reason why, or present an alternative, you're just complaining, and no one likes to listen to pointless negativity. Tell us how the Wall should work, or be, or what, or why his use of a giant wall of ice was detrimental to the plot or atmosphere. What could make the novel work better for you?

See, those are constructive points. Saying, "I don't like it because its not real enough; it doesn't fit with this story about dragons and decade-long seasons!" is kind of silly.