Cersei (Contains spoliers)

[chongjasmine]

Do you think she is a good player of the game of throne?

I find her foolish, at times.

For instance, she does not escape when Ned discovers the truth about her children.

She does not trust people, and tend to put the power of her council in the wrong hands.

She actually gives military power to the high septon, which brings about her downfall, eventually. That is the most foolish act I think she makes. I mean, give the high septon power and surely he will climb over you. Yet, she is too blind to see that.

Side-note: Do you think Jaime will come to her rescue? In AFFC, Jaime seems unlikely to come to her rescue.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Short answer, no I do not. I find her foolish all of the time too.

It's hardly the best career choice to commit adultery when Queen and the wife of someone like Robert to begin with. It's one of the more implausible things about ASoIaF that she wasn't discovered long before AGoT. Either some guardian mockingbird or ennuch has been covering up her many indiscretions for their own plans or she's been one lucky lady for far too long and now she's getting karmic payback. Is it coincidence that her 'reign' short-lived as it was, started to fall apart as soon as Petyr took himself away from Kings Landing and she started to make all the judgements? She may have considered herself Queen but it was only when Tyrion fled/Tywin died/Petyr left that she was truly exposed as a complete moron reliant on the support of able consellors (or more likely other people made the important decisions and she was never consulted). She's a puppet with the strings cut and a victim of her own greed, corruption and worst of all stupidity.

And no, Jaime is well aware of what sort of creature she is so a rescue is unlikely. However, he may be forced to return if Cersei gets her way and is defended by a Kingsguard...if the High Septon lets her choose which one anyway, rather than just the closest

 

[TK-421]

Consider these previous threads:

The Valonqar

Maggy the Frog

Cersei and Margaery what will happen?

Predictions for the Lannisters

The increasing role of Sparrows

[AFFC Spoilers] Margaery and Cersei

The Burning Letter

 

[Boaz]

Cersei definitely appears foolish compared to Littlefinger, Varys, Tyrion, Tywin, and Olenna. But then again, she defeated Eddard and Robert. Face it, she's stayed the power behind the throne while Robert, Eddard, Joffrey, and Tywin fell.

Cersei's survived a civil war and came out of it as the Queen. She successfully carried on an illicit affair for sixteen years. She bore three children to the King that were not his... and no murmur of scandal ever reached his ears. At the same time she was able to effectively send away all of Robert's bastards. She murdered her husband. During the resulting power struggle between herself, the Hand, and Robert's brothers, she emerged victorious. Then Cersei murdered all of Robert's bastards that she could get her hands on. When Joffrey died, she was able to manipulate her way into staying on as Regent. After the death of her father, she retained power despite the attempts within her own family to replace her.

Under her regency, the realm has successfully elimated two rebellions... Renly and Robb. The realm has also effectively driven a third rebel, Stannis, into exile.

Of course, Tywin, Tyrion, and Littlefinger accomplished most of this... but Cersei has a knack for survival. She is tenacious and single minded of purpose. She has shown daring in the face of physical abuse, disgrace, and death... and so far she's fared well.

I'm not saying Cersei is wise, but she possesses an instinctive ability to fight and win.

 

[bearcatmark]

I would argue she stayed in power while John Arryn, Robert and Ned failed because the two best player of games in Kings Landing (Littlefinger and Varys) both wanted it that way for their own reasons. I think both thought Cersei would create the chaos necessary to further their own goals whereas someone noble like Ned would never have served those goals as well. Littlefingers motives seem to be personal, whereas Vary's seems to desire to bring the Tarygarden's back to power.

In short I think Cersei sees herself as a player, but I think she has been played far more often.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

She's a walking mess. I think religious prison will be good for her.

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

No discussion of Cersei's competence can be complete without mentioning one of my guiding principles in trying to decipher the series. Namely the 'Cersei Is Always Wrong Rule'

Not sure if Tyrion is the valonquar? Cersei thinks he is, so I can confidently assert that he won't be. Think The Queen of Flowers will the be younger more beautiful queen replacing Cersei? Well, our lady of Lannister certainly thinks so, we better start looking at other options. It's really quite handy.

So yeah, I think it's fair to say we don't really hold Cersei's talents in high regard around here.

And Boaz, yeah, I guess she's a survivor but really just about everything you mentioned is either due to her high birth or other people taking care of her. Stannis finished Renly for her. Her father did in Robb. Kings Landing would have fallen if not for Tyrion's exploits in its defense (she can't be bothered to even thank him). She managed to hang on to the regency by the simple expedient of being the highest ranking Lannister once Tywin was dead. Given the family dynamics of Westeros there was never any chance that Kevan was going to be able to force her out.

As for concealing her affair for 16 years... Littlefinger and Varys certainly knew about it and chose to not mention it because it served their ends to mantain the status quo. I don't know how much credit she deserves for being an unwitting dupe in the plans of folks much much smarter then herself.

 

[TK-421]

While Boaz has brought out some of Cersei's successes, she has also:

1) Turned the people, including the population of King's Landing, those closest to the Iron Throne, against the ruling class

2) She has bled the countryside dry to win the wars against Robb and Stannis.

3) She has not heeded any advice or cautions over the dangers of the Others or Dany's gathering strenght

4) She could not foresee the Iron Islands to revolt once again and declare their own kingdom. She also could not foresee their raids and attacks on the rest of the kingdom.

5) She has continued to drain the coffers and put the kingdom in even more debt to the point of dismissing the emissaries of the Iron Bank, who has been funding a significant portion of the wars.

6) She continued to place those who should not be trusted or those who are incompetent in positions of power on the small council. I note Littlefinger and Aurane Waters as those not to be trusted and Maester Pycelle and Ser Giles Rosby as incompetent.

7) She is now viewed as a whore by many with Stannis' ravens announcing the illegitemacy of her children. The further admissions of the Kettleblack brothers go to further that view.

8) She has lost Dorne and Mycella to it.

9) While she hates the Tyrells and Margaery in particular, she lost Joffrey to the sceeming of the Queen of Thorns and Littlefinger and Tommen to his "queen".

10) Her power is too dependent on the support of the Tyrells. Probably the last House she should trust considering their past support of the Targaryens.

11) She alienated her entire family and her only supporters are either dead (Tywin) or want nothing to do with her (Jaime).

12) She does not think ahead and acts too impulsively.

13) She trusted lunatics like Maester Qyburn.

12) And, her biggest mistake was to hand so much power to the Sparrows and the new High Septon. That will be her downfall

 

[Boaz]

As a minor player... with her husband and father as the two most powerful men in the Kingdom, Cersei thrived. Of course, Tywin, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Varys, and others did all the real work... but nevertheless, Cersei thrived.

Now that she's firmly in control, she's "on an express elevator to hell. Goin' down!"

I'm just saying that she's got a knack for surviving... so don't be disappointed if she holds on until ADOS.

 

[Tansy]

She's one of these people that floats along on good looks and manipulation through good looks. Also having a powerful father helps, she thinks he is clever than she is and underestimates others, that seems to be her failng so far plus the fact her looks aren't what they once were.

I think the Lannister name and her father has bailed her out without her knowing in the past and she thinks it is all her doing, I think she may just have to grow up soon. If she can put all that experience she has had of power and influence in to a focused and mature package that doesn't have beauty to fall back on then she could become a force to be reckoned with.

I think Cersei maybe in for a maiming such as Jaime did with his sword hand maybe that will make them both on a level with Tryion. Now wouldn't that be justice

If she lives she is definitely in for a rougher ride and maybe at her beloved brothers hands

 

[Boaz]

When you put it that way... Cersei reminds me.... of me.

"Loving you, is easy 'cause you're beautiful..."

 

[devilsgrin]

Cersei... hmmm... i'm gonna go out on a limb and say... i actually rather like the character of Cersei. Her chapters are fun to read... lots of things seem to happen... and not just "battles" but more effective and kingdoms shaking political machinations (which is what i initially liked about the Sansa chapters - until i realised that Sansa would be close to my favourite character... certainly my favourite Stark).
Now, whilst Cersei does some stupid things... i actually think that she IS an intelligent woman, even a very intelligent one... she is, however, not as smart as she thinks she is, and that is where all her problems come from... Not nearly in Tywin's or Littlefingers league, nor Tyrion's (who i rate at below both Tywin and Petyr) its this misguided self-belief that is Cersei's undoing.
I agree with Boaz, i foresee Cersein surviving til the end... survivor through and through.

For instance, she does not escape when Ned discovers the truth about her children

.

i don't see this in any way as being detrimental to Cersei, nor a reflection of foolishness. Lets not forget the ultimate outcome of Ned's discovery... who ends up beheaded... i forget... oh wait, it was our holier than thou Stark Lord who got his head lopped off by Ilyn Payne. Cersei had ALL the power in this instance... there was no-one in King's Landing who would have dared to raise a hand against the Queen... daughter of the most powerful Lord in the Kingdoms, and mother to the next King.

She actually gives military power to the high septon, which brings about her downfall, eventually. That is the most foolish act I think she makes. I mean, give the high septon power and surely he will climb over you. Yet, she is too blind to see that

this is the kind of move that shows her limitations. her greatest flaw perhaps is her Arrogance... she didn't think she could be touched at that point, and allowing the reformation of the Sparrows, whilst in the short term was perhaps a good idea... in the consequences showed a much farther reaching problem... the same problem iirc that caused the Sparrows to be disbanded in the first place.

 

[TK-421]

It will be interesting to see what GRRM actually does with the character of Cersei. He can kill her off as most would expect.

But with Stoneheart and Jaime, I cannot see GRRM repeating the same fate for Cersei.

She is one of those characters, like Theon, that most readers hate that will probably survive somehow to the end.

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

TK-

She'll be straggled by the volanquar. It is known.

Seriously, I can see Cersei surviving until ADoS, after all we've got two more Lannister brats to kill off before she's in any real danger, but can't we take it as a fact that Maggy the Frog was right and somebody (my money is hugely on Jaime) is going to choke her to death. Am I missing something?

 

[Zoboomafoo]

I think Cersei COULD be a good player of the game, but unfortunatley her weaknesses: arrogance and short sightedness, negate her strengths: her intelligence and beauty.

Cersei is with out a doubt very intelligent and pragmatic. She understands the way her world works, and understands what many view as her place in that world. Along with her beauty she definatley has the tools she needs to be a highly effective player.

However she counteracts these strengths with her blind belief she is smarter than all the men in Kings Landing, thinking they all use their smaller heads more than the one on their shoulders. She also never seems to think ahead, and is more interested in the now, and how things will benefit her today instead of tomorrow. She also has the inability to accept differing opinions or ideas from her own.

Her rash decision making has caused numerous devastating consequences not only for her, but for the entire realm. Lets take a look...

1. Killing Robert Baratheon - Yes this made her Queen Reagent and saved her children, however it started the War of 5 Kings, the reprucussions of which are still being felt.

2. Aurane Waters - This proved to be one of her most classic blunders thinking Aurane charming and handsome she gives him command of the royal fleet. He quickly steals all the Warships and leaves Cersei high and dry...literally lol

3. The Small Council - Naming only people who would agree with her, leads to numerous bad decisions.

4. The Faith Militant - Giving tons of new powers to the Faith, leads to the formation of the Faith Militant, and Cersei's eventual arrest, and untold problems in the future.

5. Margaery Tyrell - Having Kettleback try to seduce the young Queen or lie about it. This eventually led to Cersei being arrested for the very charges she was trying to place on Margaery.

6. Pissing off Jaime - The one person who truly did love her, she alienated him for not agreeing with her, and now her one hope of rescue is pretty much gone.

I believe Jamie said it best about Cersei

[Cersei] liked to think of herself as Lord Tywin with teats, but she was wrong. Their father had been as relentless and implacable as a glacier, where Cersei was all wildfire, especially when thwarted. ... She does not lack for wits, but she has no judgment, and no patience.

 

[TK-421]

However she counteracts these strengths with her blind belief she is smarter than all the men in Kings Landing, thinking they all use their smaller heads more than the one on their shoulders. She also never seems to think ahead, and is more interested in the now, and how things will benefit her today instead of tomorrow. She also has the inability to accept differing opinions or ideas from her own.

Zoboo:

You hit this one on the head. She is still very bitter about what happened with her and Rheagar. It comes out in her outlook and actions.

As for the Valoquar. My vote is with Tyrion.

BTW, my kids love your TV show!

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

I just feel like her total lack of patience and refusal to compromise are pretty much fatal flaws as far as her as a serious player is concerned. Yeah, she's been able to survive and maintain her influence (due entirely to her high birth and the talented people surrounding her, people she resents and strives to rid herself of). But how much credit does she really deserve for that?

I feel like the way she's completely mangled the Tyrell alliance pretty much encapsulates why she's so bad at the game. Even if all her scheming against the Queen of Flowers had come off the way she intended, the likely result would have been another war, this one against the better armed, better supplied, and better rested Tyrells. It wouldn't have gone well for the Lannnisters. It's really hard to see any upside in her plans at all. She's just completely unable to put her jealousy of the younger Maegery aside and that's goinng to have an incredibly high price.

 

[Lyanna Stark]

Switched over from the Cersei? pregnant? thread as it seems to have more relevance here.

Cercei does also have her brain... which all Cercei hating aside, IS formiddable. her downfall is she lacks patience and the "long view" Tywin possessed.

"She does not lack for wits, but she has no judgment, and no patience" AFFC
She IS currently Lady Lannister, as well as being Queen Regent. With Jaime a sworn member of the Kingsguard, and Tyrion being a wanted criminal with a death warrant on his head, Cercei, as the next in line, is Lady of Casterly Rock. Kevan got nothing. iirc he has minor lands, but he's certainly not Lord Lannister.

I am the last one to say Cersei doesn't have a brain. She absolutely does. I just think that her mentality, that of being somewhat narcissistic ("Cersei Lannister is indescribably beautiful," etc.) and very self-important, which I grant is only somewhat her fault (she is Tywin Lannister's only daughter after all, and would have been raised to that form of thinking and self-image) has led her to make some epically poor choices. Namely the choosing of her small council who are nothing more than "yes men" parroting back to her what she wants to hear and telling her how smart she is, and the fact that she spurns alliances she actually needs (Tyrells) in order to stabilize and strengthen the kingdom. She lets her personal negative bias toward the Tyrells cloud her judgment regarding their usefulness, which I think demonstrates narrow-mindedness and a clear disregard for what would be best for the kingdom.

Having nearly finished my reread of AFFC, I can only reinforce my thoughts from earlier. I believe that her renowned beauty in great deal shaped and defined how she views herself. There is a particular quote of Maggy the Frog's that I believe really demonstrates this:

"Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."
​

The 'younger and more beautiful' part I think is a key identifier in Cersei's problem. It states that yes, Cersei will lose her position as queen, which as Tywin Lannister's daughter is a position she would cling to dearly, and certainly something she holds dear. But it additionally states "take all that you hold dear" which can be left open to interpretation. Without a doubt she values her children. Her grief for Joffery was genuine; her protective nature where Myrcella and Tommen are concerned is without question. It is also clear that she has, at least until recently, loved and needed her twin Jaime.

But as Cersei was raised by Lord Tywin, who knew his golden children were perfect, and took great pains to let the rest of the world know it too, she was raised with the knowledge that she was an unparalleled beauty, something that would most certainly shape and define her image of herself. So to lose her queen-ship to someone "younger and more beautiful" does not just suggest that she loses what goes along with being queen, but that she will lose a great deal more, and what could be worse than not only losing the position you worked so hard to attain and keep, but to in essence lose everything that defined you as you? So ultimately, it's not just her position or family, but her identity that's at stake.

I think that would be more than enough to screw with someone's head. My two cents.

 

[Needle]

I feel Cersei has a brain, she just refuses to use it! She has a serious case of I-itis! I want, and I want it now!

My best analogy of Cersei is you would not want to play checkers with her, she would beat you everytime, but with a total lack of patience and forethought chess would be another story. She would most likely get ticked off and throw the board at you!

 

[Koopa]

you're underestimating checkers here.
mind you sacrificing pieces of your own board to get an advantage often works like a charm with that game. and cersei would be good at sending her own to their deaths for her own good.