Ultimate ancestry of Aryans a.k.a. Indo-Europeans

[Drachir]

Sorry to butt in, yet I'd just like to make something clear. Atlantis is not a myth in the accepted sense-- it is something that Plato created in order to get his ideas across in his written dialogue The Republic. It appears in nothing before this and is not part of the general body of Greek myths, ie- there is no 'tradition of Atlantis'. No serious Classical scholar is trying to prove its existence. In fact, my lecturers went to great lengths to disabuse first years of this common misconception.

Plato doesn't mention electricity. Perhaps Madame Blavatsky does- I really couldn't say.

And please no one suggest that the Minoans are Atlantis, because there's a whole set of actual myths based on the Minoans where they are referred to as 'The Minoans' or 'Cretans'.

Sorry everyone. Bit of a bugbear of mine. Carry on.

Thank you. Finally a comment on Atlantis that makes sense.

 

[J-WO]

That's alright. Sorry if I come across as patronizing, btw.

 

[dustinzgirl]

That doesn't stop people from researching Atlantis as a real physical place with real ancient societies.

 

[dustinzgirl]

Please don't confuse being smart with having sense. They are semi-independent attributes. (And having a developed - or even an overdeveloped - sense of curiosity is something else again.)

And here is where our society gets interesting...common perception usually examines that people who don't finish school are dumb, while people who do finish school aren't necessarily smart.

To piggyback on the Big Bear here a bit... not only that, but there is a rather large difference between investigating something for which evidence hasn't been found, and continuing to investigate or support an idea for which plenty of contrary evidence has been found; i.e., evidence which strongly indicates that the model where said situation supposedly existed simply doesn't fit the facts. (Of course, when you go talking about the "superscientific" empire of Atlantis, rather than an island city-state or nation which was wiped out by a natural disaster, then you are stepping over into the "pure balderdash" realm of things. The origins of that Atlantis can be traced to quite modern times, and to darned near their primary sources; which rather leaves a gaping hole in the idea of this being a secret from the ancient past....)

As for vril... poor old Bulwer. Remembered for this, an opening sentence considered one of the worst in the English language, and one (very good) ghost story. Lo! how are the mighty fallen....

Yeah...um...it was kind of just an example guys.

But its a pretty old world, and just because we don't know that it exists doesn't mean that it couldn't have existed. Besides, I already know that Atlantis is on Mars.

 

[HareBrain]

The idea of Atlantis has spawned all kinds of weird, wacky and wonderful ideas, and some great fiction. If the remains of a 10,000 year old civilisation were ever discovered, it would be interesting for many reasons, but it would also kill all that speculation dead. If Atlantis ever did exist, I hope it stays hidden.

 

[dustinzgirl]

The idea of Atlantis has spawned all kinds of weird, wacky and wonderful ideas, and some great fiction. If the remains of a 10,000 year old civilisation were ever discovered, it would be interesting for many reasons, but it would also kill all that speculation dead. If Atlantis ever did exist, I hope it stays hidden.

Nah, Egyptians are still pretty live and well in myth and history.

 

[dreamhunter]

Well, no, they're not. Theoretically at least, they too are subject to certain conditions. Mathematics is a construct; it has no genuine basis in the real world beyond simple arithmetic -- and even that is subject to alterations in the known physical laws. They are unlikely to change, but it is not impossible that they may change. Nothing in science is absolute, because, as I said before, it must be falsifiable. Mathematics is a system of signifiers, nothing more. The facts supporting those things signified change, the value of the signifiers change. It's as simple as that.

I have to give it to ya. You have this fantastic gift for making something simple sound so darn high faluting n complicated. I wonder too where you learned your mathematics. Or arithmetic.

On my right, or, left, arm, I have 1 thumb n 1 forefinger. Then 3 other fingers. Tell me, show me, how - or when - or where - in this entire universe of space-time - those might not add up to my 5 fingers, then I'll listen to ya.

 

[dreamhunter]

As for the rest: No, they won't be insulted. Nor will they be particularly interested in anything I have to say, either. But because they don't take offense does not mean such comments are not insults issued.

They very much are, because, in putting such baseless speculation on a par with the results of decades, even centuries, of research, is tantamount to saying that a child's views of geopolitics is as valid as a real-world basis for understanding the subject as the views issued by someone who has spent their entire life studying and/or practicing the subject.

Now you've just issued an insult to all children of the world. Dismissing their capacity n capability wholesale in one reckless, contemptuous sentence.

You know, a child once jolted thousands of wise, prudent, intelligent adults into realising the error of their overzealous faith in n reverence for their exalted sovereign.

Read: "Daddy! Daddy! The Emperor is Not Wearing Any Clothes!"

 

[dreamhunter]

And ca-ca means **** in Spanish, and in English it doesn't mean anything at all really, so I don't really see your point, and I don't think that Troy has anything to do with my point....

But its all good!

It has everything to do with your point, but you missed it.

You see, Trojans were Thracians. All descendants of Tursha/Teresh (i.e. Tiras), possibly the youngest son of Japheth. Whatever or wherever Tursha's place in the world historical chronology is. 5,000 BC, 10,000 BC, whatever.

If youve read the Troy story, The Thracians fought on the side of the Trojans. Thats cos they were the same people.

Troy was just the name of a city kingdom. It was called Truwa by the Egyptians n Taruisa by the Hittites n the Trojans themselves. Ethnically, the Trojans were Thracians, not Ionians. But they were settled, civilised Thracians, not the nomadic, barbarian Thracians that lived in the north, across the straits.

Like the Cymmerians many centuries after them, the Thracians split into two branches. The western branch remained in Europe, later becoming assimilated by Greeks n southern Slavs. The early Bolgars were a Western Turkic people descended from the ancient Thracians. They only became Slavicised much, much later.

The eastern branch went back to Central Asia n mixed with Huns, Tartars n Mongols, coming back again many centuries later, to reconquer, stage by stage, the original Anatolian-Balkan homelands of their ancient Thracian forefathers, as first Oghuz Turkmen, then Seljuk, then Ottoman.

 

[J-WO]

Now you've just issued an insult to all children of the world. Dismissing their capacity n capability wholesale in one reckless, contemptuous sentence.

You know, a child once jolted thousands of wise, prudent, intelligent adults into realising the error of their overzealous faith in n reverence for their exalted sovereign.

Read: "Daddy! Daddy! The Emperor is Not Wearing Any Clothes!"

I concur. In fact, I refuse to embark on any jumbo jet unless I'm 100% assured there's a toddler at the helm.

Now I'm off to read 'the Troy story' by... that blind bloke.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Now you've just issued an insult to all children of the world. Dismissing their capacity n capability wholesale in one reckless, contemptuous sentence.

Since when is commenting on their lack of knowledge and experience dismissing their capacity and capability? A child's capabilities will always be somewhat limited by what they (don't) know, but with time they should learn and grow.

For instance, I'm sure that most of the young people who refuse to spell out simple words now because they think txt spk abbreviations are so ultra cool will eventually learn better.

You know, a child once jolted thousands of wise, prudent, intelligent adults into realising the error of their overzealous faith in n reverence for their exalted sovereign.

Read: "Daddy! Daddy! The Emperor is Not Wearing Any Clothes!"

You mention that as if it were a historical incident instead of a literary fairy tale by Hans Christian Andersen. "The Emperor's New Clothes" was based on a medieval source, but as I understand it the ending with the child proving all of the adults wrong was Andersen's own invention.

 

[Ursa major]

You mention that as if it were a historical incident instead of a literary fairy tale by Hans Christian Andersen. "The Emperor's New Clothes" was based on a medieval source, but as I understand it the ending with the child proving all of the adults wrong was Andersen's own invention.

That's interesting, Teresa.

I've never read the story itself - I've only heard the bare bones of it - but the impression I've been given is that it's all directed to that ending. It would seem the original may have been quite a bit different.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Apparently, it wasn't even Andersen's original ending. It was supposed to end with everyone admiring the Emperor's new attire, and he added in the part about the child after the story was at the printer's.

So, although it is adapted from a traditional tale (and cleaned up a bit in the process) the ending is not the traditional one, but something Andersen felt inspired at the last possible minute to change.

It's not even a genuine bit of folk-wisdom. Although I think it's a good story and makes a good point, I think the point is sufficiently made without the child exposing the fraud. (The child is a nice touch, though.)

 

[The Judge]

You mention that as if it were a historical incident instead of a literary fairy tale by Hans Christian Andersen. "The Emperor's New Clothes" was based on a medieval source, but as I understand it the ending with the child proving all of the adults wrong was Andersen's own invention.

You mean it might be necessary to separate out fact from fairy tale? Goodness, whatever next?!

 

[dreamhunter]

I concur. In fact, I refuse to embark on any jumbo jet unless I'm 100% assured there's a toddler at the helm.

Now I'm off to read 'the Troy story' by... that blind bloke.

Ha ha. You've just given me a great idea for my next kiddy story: Juvenile Johnny on a Jumbo Joystick. Or maybe Infant Ivan. Cheers ma'am.

 

[dreamhunter]

You mention that as if it were a historical incident instead of a literary fairy tale by Hans Christian Andersen. "The Emperor's New Clothes" was based on a medieval source, but as I understand it the ending with the child proving all of the adults wrong was Andersen's own invention.

History or tale, the moral of the story, as well as the point I'm making, is that, sometimes we get ourselves lost and confused in our own made-up, glorified, convoluted, labyrinthian complexity and sophistication, when all it needs is the simplest, most down-to-earth way of looking at things.

And Hans Christian Andersen, to me, must be among the best examples of that.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

... the point I'm making, is that, sometimes we get ourselves lost and confused in our own made-up, glorified, convoluted, labyrinthian complexity

But isn't that what you have been encouraging people to do here?

Personally, I love fairy tales, and I think you can learn a lot from them -- for instance, they can explain a lot about psychological landscapes -- but I wouldn't want to take them as a guide for life lessons. They are sometimes shockingly amoral and/or cruel.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Now you've just issued an insult to all children of the world. Dismissing their capacity n capability wholesale in one reckless, contemptuous sentence.

You know, a child once jolted thousands of wise, prudent, intelligent adults into realising the error of their overzealous faith in n reverence for their exalted sovereign.

Read: "Daddy! Daddy! The Emperor is Not Wearing Any Clothes!"

Okay, I think this thread is fast going downhill into insults, so time to close it.