Can ADWD live up to the hype?

[Dr. Elitist]

If A Dance with Dragons comes out in fall 2010, it'll be a decade since we last read new stories from the lives of Jon, Tyrion, Dany and Bran, and half a decade since anything from Arya, Sansa, and Sam. During this time there has been lots of speculation, anticipation, and merciless, fiery, slightly scary hatred aimed at George R.R. Martin. ADWD has been many people's "most anticipated book of the year" for most of that time, and as the wait grows so do people's hopes and expectations for this thing. Many people have spent the gaps solving mysteries and unlocking prophecies, and pretty much predicting every possible way for the series to end besides a massive Pokemon battle involving every character (which might leave some readers disappointed).

So, my question is this: do you think the book can possibly live up to this insane hype? Certain people aren't going to be pleased no matter what, and will get back to their ranting and murderous rage as soon as they read it. But, for the more passive reader, is it possible for it to live up to the hype? Personally, I hope so, but I'm not at all confident that it'll happen.

What do you think?

 

[Culhwch]

I think as you do. I suspect those who've waited patiently will be satisfied, and those who've waited impatiently won't be. They'll be a little bleed between the two groups, but I think generally, that's the way it'll play...

 

[Koopa]

It will probably be like with AFFC, i loved the book.
Most fans though couldn't stop whining about it being less good then the previous books. Granted it wasn't as good as the others, but still way better then most other books out there. By now i've reread AFFC just as much as the others. And i'm liking it even more with every reread.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Hmm, I'll buck the trend and say no; I think it'll hit the bestseller's chart with a mighty "Kapow!" and fans will love it. I'd argue that the reason people were turned off with AFfC was because their "favourite" characters were missing. As ADwD will include Tyrion, Jon, Arya et all then people will lap it up like dehydrated men at an oasis.

I don't begrudge GRRM for his spinoffs into Wild Cards and other distractions (though I might were he to pass away like Jordan before the finish!) as he's obviously had major issues with both AFfC & ADwD after backtracking on his original intent to place a time gap in the novels. I'm optimisically assuming that this means the last 2 novels will be less stressful and will flow towards publication sooner. I met GRRM a few years ago and he discussed lots of other ideas he had for new novels and work and I think this series has become a bit of a millstone around his neck. Not to say that he doesn't love the story, fans etc but as you said earlier the outright abuse he is receiving from some "fans" is beyond the pale.

 

[TK-421]

Short answer: Yes.

 

[The Imp]

Where's the hype? Do you mean the conversations that people have had when speculating about what the plot will contain? Or why the book has been delayed? Or if GRRM should lock himself in a room and do nothing but eat, sleep and work on ADWD?

I don't remember anyone saying that this will be the best book so far. I think a few have said (in an oblique way) that the quality of the series went down with AFFC and would ADWD be able to get things back on track. For me, in order for something to be hyped you need people doing some hyping. Ads being run, pre-release tours. Discussions being fabricated to encourage interest. Think the Palin book and you have a perfect example of hype.

Please don't take this post to be critical (I suspect you meant "expectations" rather than "hype"). As a fellow fan of someone who crafts his books with the precision of a Swiss watch maker you'll understand why I value language so much and read things as they are written.

To answer the question I think you asked, I think that ADWD will be on par with the first 3 books. I'm one of those that had trouble with AFFC and while it was better on a reread, it still wasn't "as good" as it's predecessors. As Winters Sorrow said above, everyone's favorite characters will be back.I think that alone will be enough.

 

[No One]

It will probably be like with AFFC, i loved the book.
Most fans though couldn't stop whining about it being less good then the previous books. Granted it wasn't as good as the others, but still way better then most other books out there. By now i've reread AFFC just as much as the others. And i'm liking it even more with every reread.

I still can't believe how some people have jumped all over the back of AFFC. After ASOS I expected the next book would be much slower going, seeing as how ASOS culminated dozens of elements and reaped what the previous two books had sown. Carrying that kind of momentum into AFFC would have put the series on its way to becoming the aforementioned pokemon battle.

Clearly, AFFC was part re-set, taking the time to sow new seeds. We've seen new characters and the expansion into Dorne, Braavos, Iron Islands, etc, with the secrets of the likes of Highgarden still to be revealed (to say nothing of Dany's rule further East, Jon, Bran, etc). With three books to go, I'd say Martin is already laying the groundwork for a seriously epic finale.

So with regard to the main question here, I've no doubt Martin can pull it off, because he already has with ASOS. Expectations can't be high enough to ruin a genuinely great piece of work IMO. If some fans don't like what's coming, it'll probably be for a couple of incredibly lame reasons, while ignoring everything else that's been good about the books.

With that said, I'll be cursing Martin if/when Arya dies...

 

[Dr. Elitist]

To the Imp, "expectations" probably is a better word, but I would also say that a lot of people are hyping it up to be as good as a book from the opening trilogy, considering that most of the fan-favorites are returning, and I think there's one new character being introduced, but that number is almost certainly wrong, keeping in mind my inability to retain most information I receive.

 

[Werthead]

For some people it will, for some it won't. It depends how closely you've been following developments. The same was true of AFFC. With AFFC, I noted that people who were aware ahead of time that GRRM had had a lot of problems with the book and had heard that half the cast wasn't in it and the book was going to be a slower, post-war volume generally didn't have too many issues with it. I also note that people who read the first four books straight through also don't have too many issues with it.

The biggest complaints seem to come from those who did wait a substantial amount of time for it expecting it to be ASoS II and walked away dissatisfied due to its slower pace and setting-the-scene nature. However, I think the reaction to AFFC is more akin to that of Wheel of Time around Book 6-7 where people were going, "Okay, so where is this headed again?", and not say Book 8 or 10, when people were saying, "This is a POS! Nothing happened!" Hopefully ASoIaF will never get to that level, and I don't think it will.

It'll be interesting to see how ADWD is handled. Ironically, a lot of people who are down on AFFC also seem to be expecting ADWD to be the same kind of book, so if it is different (and it appears to be, at least in part) they may be pleasently surprised.

 

[Landroval]

I think there will be disappointment in some quarters. I think it likely that the five year delay since book four has much to do with a lack of enthusiasm on the part of GRRM, together with the lack of any clear plan on where to go from here. Given this, brilliant as GRRM is (and he IS brilliant) the series is bound to suffer somewhat as a result.

Of course there will be a spectrum of reaction. Some will love the book whatever he writes. Some will criticise it no matter what. But after AFFC I detected a general cooling amongst fans (because of a perceived loss of focus as the book diversified and explored new threads while leaving old ones unresolved) and my prediction is that this trend will continue if and when ADWD is published.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I suspect those who've waited patiently will be satisfied, and those who've waited impatiently won't be.

That's a very good appraisal.

I'm sure I've mentioned before my dissatisfaction with the series - it feels it's moved from being a story to becoming a soap opera, where we follow characters for no reason than they inhabit the same world even though they have no real impact on the main story (Arya!!).

However, my cynicism means I'm neither impatient nor patience - just resigned to seeing the story meander further from any original focus into a general exploration of his world building notes.

The writing style is superb - top notch - but I feel a lack of focus growing as the series developed has spoiled it somewhat.

Did I say I was a cynic?

 

[No One]

That's a very good appraisal.

I'm sure I've mentioned before my dissatisfaction with the series - it feels it's moved from being a story to becoming a soap opera, where we follow characters for no reason than they inhabit the same world even though they have no real impact on the main story (Arya!!).

However, my cynicism means I'm neither impatient nor patience - just resigned to seeing the story meander further from any original focus into a general exploration of his world building notes.

The writing style is superb - top notch - but I feel a lack of focus growing as the series developed has spoiled it somewhat.

Did I say I was a cynic?

Hey Bwian,

I think the Cersei POV has created an aspect of the 'soap opera' that you speak of (which is understandable given her character) but I have to disagree strongly with singling out Arya as having no impact on the story. Granted, she not having an impact right now (I mean, she's ten, how much impact can she have?), but clearly she's going places (and if, as a reader, you can't root for a character like Arya, Tyrion, Jon, Dany, etc, then what's the point? The same argument has been said of Sansa, but it's clear that the Stark kids are big factors, irrespective of current events.

And I can only hope you're wrong about ADWD goind downhill. I will maintain the opposing - more positive - notion that from hereon out in the series, everything will be tapering to an increasingly focused conclusion, rather than diffusing into a series of pointless scenes (as long as the books get written, I refuse to believe that a writer of Martin's quality could allow that to happen).

On the other hand, I think he is milking his popularity to near Lucas-like proportions with his constant promotion of older works. This, along with a reluctance to update people on ADWD - which is all of us really want to know about right now - can be construed as some kind of pseudo-sado-masochistic relationship with Martin and some fans.

Don't get me wrong. I'm happy to wait. What bugs me is my own cynicism that tells me the series might never be finished...

By the way, I Brian, I could swear I've seen your avatar before. Do you happen to write for a website that sounds like 'Sweet101'? I've cunningly encrypted the name because I'm pretty sure promoting other websites is a no-no.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Afraid "Sweet101" rings no clues, but I know other people have lifted it before now.

 

[TK-421]

This, along with a reluctance to update people on ADWD - which is all of us really want to know about right now - can be construed as some kind of pseudo-sado-masochistic relationship with Martin and some fans.

Sorry, No One, but have to disagree. There are few other authors speak with fans as much GRRM does or the way GRRM does. If you've ever seen him, you would know what I mean. He does provide updates on his blog but everytime he does he gets skewered by those who think he's not writing fast enough. So, he has admitted that he will not provide too many more updates and has learnt from that past mistake. Can you blame him? I think not.

 

[Landroval]

For myself I'd be happy if he didn't write any more updates if it meant he got the darned book finished!

From his note at the end of AFFC, I had the impression that a great deal of work had already been done on book five back in 2005. So, whatever explanations or excuses are offered, I just can't shake off a certain sceptism about George's commitment to (and enthusiasm for) the tale. Even if I accept that he hadn't a clue what was going to happen in ADWD back in 2005, I can't convince myself that it would take him five years to write, not if he were truly dedicated to it. Because, surely, if you truly care about your work, you apply yourself to it; you don't keep putting it off or forgetting about it and posting excuses on blogs?

Of course I can only speculate. For example, I wonder whether or not George has any sense of duty to his readers? Maybe a sense of duty is the only thing that keeps him going with this series? Or maybe he has no sense of duty and has feels no guilt about making his readers wait. I'm not saying he owes his readers a sense of duty and I wouldn't necessarily criticise him if he doesn't. In fact, this thought encourages me, because if it's a case of George being stubborn, keeping his to own timetable and refusing to be rushed despite the whinging of sad nerds that need to get a life, then it's more likely that ADWD will live up to the hype.

But if he is forcing himself to write every word, I think we are all going to be sadly disappointed.

 

[No One]

Hey thanks Landroval - you summed it up very nicely for me.

TK - the underlying concern is that Martin has, to some extent, become disenchanted with his own story. It can, has, and will happen in literature. I'm sure we've all seen it before. Hopefully, I'm wrong and, like I say, I'm happy to wait as long as it takes for Martin to make the books as good as they can be.

No, I've never met Martin (could've caught him in November but found out too late!) and I don't know much about him. Personally, I prefer to know authors through their work - judge the art, not the artist. I'm not judging Martin as a person, or even as a professional - the logistics of telling this story must be truly mind-boggling, especially as the series wasn't originally planned for seven books. And I don't want to see Martin blogging daily, or weekly, or even monthly, to keep fans updated (and for the most part I completely agree with Neil Gaiman's defense of him), but am I wrong in saying that his last official post on Ice & Fire was two years ago? Even that silence, in itself, would be fine, but when he takes the time to blog about other everyday things, then that will rub some people the wrong way. Deliberate it may not be, but by negatively reacting to the more idiotic fanmail he's indirectly punishing other fans whose only trangression is loving the man's work.

There's also another, very practical, reason for fans to get worried. Martin is not a young man and beyond any question of committment there's a question of, well, staying alive. I don't know how ill he was recently, but even a flu can be dangerous when you're 60+.

Cheers guys.

 

[DeannaBelle]

All right. I haven't signed in here in a long time. So, ADWD is supposed to be coming out in the fall, eh? Why do I always pick series which will likely remain uncompleted forever?

You know, they will probably hire someone to complete the series if GRRM doesn't before his time, and then it will suck just as bad as the sequel to Gone With the Wind.

 

[No One]

All right. I haven't signed in here in a long time. So, ADWD is supposed to be coming out in the fall, eh? Why do I always pick series which will likely remain uncompleted forever?

You know, they will probably hire someone to complete the series if GRRM doesn't before his time, and then it will suck just as bad as the sequel to Gone With the Wind.

Hi DeannaBelle,

One of my local bookstores told me April next year, but the consensus seems to be the last quarter. Martin has made it clear though that there is no set deadline and he certainly hasn't announced anything like a release date yet. Maybe someone else knows a little more about it...

 

[The Imp]

Oct. 6th, 2009 at 9:04 PM



Finished a Jon Snow chapter, and have just passed the 1100 page (manuscript pages, the page count in the final printed book will be different) mark on A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. That's counting only finished chapters in something close to final form. I have considerably more in partials, fragments, and roughs.

Even with just the finished portions, DANCE is now longer than A FEAST FOR CROWS and A GAME OF THRONES, and I'm closing in on A CLASH OF KINGS. I do hope I can wrap things up before I approach the 1521 page length of A STORM OF SWORDS.

Making a new run at the Meereenese knot, but maybe not tomorrow. I think I'll hang around at the Wall a bit longer, and maybe visit Winterfell.

This was GRRM's last real update. I suspect that when he's "untied the Meeranese Knot" he'll let out a whoop and everyone will know. It SOUNDS as if the book is closer to being done than not, but it would be pure speculation on anyone's part to say April 2010, given the lead time needed to turn the completed manuscript into a published book.

 

[TK-421]

This was posted on his Blog on Jan. 5th:

I meant to post yesterday on the weekend's games, but got busy writing instead, and finished a Tyrion chapter that I've been struggling with for six months. Nibbling away at that knot. We'll see if the finished chapter holds up to reread and polish today.