Does 'first three chapters' include the prologue?

[Belador]

Hi everyone,

Hope you all had a great Christmas and new year. I'm planning to send my first submissions in the next few months, and have been looking at various agents' submission guidelines - when they say 'send the first three chapters', what do you do if you have a prologue? Should I send this plus the first three chapters? I'm happy to call them if I need to, but was hoping someone might already know!

Cheers,
B

 

[Interference]

I think - but stand to be corrected - that the prologue constitutes the first of three written chapters - just because it has a different name doesn't negate its status as the opening salvo of your book. So be sure to make it interesting.

On the other hand, if Chapters 1,2 and 3 work well (or better) without the prologue, then don't even mention the fact that there is a prologue.

Those things you hear rattling around are my two cents. My opinion is worth that much

 

[The Judge]

I think there are some other threads on this topic, Belador, so it might be worth a little research into the archives to see.

For what it's worth, I sent my prologue and first two chapters, on the basis that the prologue was written in a very different style and provided a hook which the first chapter didn't, dammit. It also gave background that was immediately helpful to the beginning of the book, and it was contemporaneous with it. But if it had been much of a muchness in style with the others, or seemingly irrelevant (ie a prologue set several hundred years beforehand that only makes sense when you get to chapter 10) I'd have sent the first 3 main chapters instead.

So, I think the answer is - it depends! If it showcases your talent, include it. If not, don't bother.

To put another way - if the agent is only going to read one page, do you want it to be the first page of the prologue or of chapter 1? Because if you don't grab her with that first page, she might not read anything further.

J

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I more or less agree with the Judge. If it is chapter length (say 10 or more pages) treat it as a chapter. If it is only a couple of pages, treat it as an epigraph (the little quotes and things that sometimes get tacked on at the beginning of a chapter) and include it or not depending on how important you think it is, and whether or not it plunges the reader into some sort of interesting action. If it's a creation myth, you should almost certainly leave it out. If it is more than three pages or so and less than ten ... you have an interesting dilemma.

I know, I know, chapters come in all different lengths. But generally speaking chapters are between 10 and 24 pages. And we are talking about a specific situation here, where the agent wants a certain amount of writing, and a first chapter that is of significantly smaller size won't work.

 

[marklord]

But why write a prologue at all? Isn't it a bit of a Fantasy cliche? If it's part of the story perhaps it should just be chapter one? I find when I browse in a bookshop I never read the prologue, but rather sample the first page or two of the first chapter as you know this will be more indicative of the actual narrative.

 

[HareBrain]

But why write a prologue at all? Isn't it a bit of a Fantasy cliche? If it's part of the story perhaps it should just be chapter one? I find when I browse in a bookshop I never read the prologue, but rather sample the first page or two of the first chapter as you know this will be more indicative of the actual narrative.

What about the prologue to GRRM's A Game of Thrones? Would that have worked as ch1, given that it's from a POV character who never returns? I don't think so, and I certainly don't think he could have left it out.

Yes, it is a fantasy cliche, and it should only be used when needed. But sometimes, it is.

 

[Tirellan]

Personally I did not send my prologue as part of my opening chapters package

 

[Belador]

Thanks for your responses, they're really helpful. Food for thought.

 

[Jon Sprunk]

My 2 cents: if the prologue is especially catchy and cool, then include it and count it as one of the chapters. Otherwise, leave it out of the submission altogether.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

Prologues are very useful for luring readers into a novel...

 

[JDP]

IMO, if you've included a prologue then it's because the prologue is relevant to the overall piece. Otherwise, why is it there at all? If you have one, include it.

Prologues aren't exclusive to fantasy, they're a narrative device used in all kinds of fiction. I read them because if they're there, it's because there's a point to them being there.

 

[LukeW]

But why write a prologue at all? Isn't it a bit of a Fantasy cliche? If it's part of the story perhaps it should just be chapter one? I find when I browse in a bookshop I never read the prologue, but rather sample the first page or two of the first chapter as you know this will be more indicative of the actual narrative.

As I understand it, the prologue is there to introduce the world to the reader. In fantasy this is important because often the world that you've created is unique to the individual work.

A good prologue should then allow chapter one to flow nicely into the story without having to bog the reader down in details.

 

[Dozmonic]

If I write a prologue it's because it tends to be that first flap of the butterfly's wings that sets the story in motion. I like to foreshadow and the prologue is a powerful tool to do so. Chapter 1 will often then start somewhere entirely different, often oblivious to the prologue.

 

[marklord]

Still not convinced that prologues are really necessary. Sorry, but something about them grates with me and I always worry if I see one, although some good writers like GRRM do use them. But it's interesting that he didn't use a prologue for his excellent vampire novel Fevre Dream. I think perhaps he did for Songs of Fire and Ice because he was consciously writing mass market fantasy - so prologues, maps were a requirement, and no doubt one that he enjoyed including.

I don't see them in the works of some of my favourite fantasy writers such as Wolfe, Le Guin, Vance and Zelazny seem to present very original fantasy worlds without them. Yes Tolkien has a prologue, but it's more of a scholarly introduction regarding the history of hobbits than a scene illustrating the narrative's background.

I can't agree that a prologue is needed for most fantasy novel for world building reasons - after all most fantasy worlds are really very similar, and often the prologue tends to be more about something to do with the background to the narrative rather than filling in detail of the world itself. Vance in Lyonesse and Tolkien in LOTR did provide detailed historical backgrounds at the beginning of their novels, but these aren't anything like the prologues you see in most mass market fantasy novels nowadays.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

The way I see it, Belador, being (as I suppose) the only person here who has read the whole novel and understands the importance -- or not -- of the prologue, is the only person who can decide whether to include it or not. We can all weigh in with our personal opinions about prologues (I, personally, do not see them as a necessary part of the epic fantasy novel, but one may be necessary to a fantasy novel) and it brings us no closer to answering the real question.

The real question is, I believe, once the decision has been made to include it, whether to count it as a chapter or not. As I said before, I think that is a question of length. How long is your prologue, Belador?

 

[Brian G Turner]

Something worth bearing in mind is that just because 3 chapters are asked for as standard, there should be no expectation of anyone actually reading all of those chapters.

It's worth remembering as well that the agent is not reading the MSS to enjoy the story, but instead to pick apart the writing until at such point they put it down and move on to the next MSS. Three chapters allows the agent to be momentarily hooked by something, before the writer spoils it - and if the writer can maintain consistent quality over that span, that means they be worth a request for more, presuming the agent feels they can spare time for a new client.

Perhaps not true, but I tend to take a cynical view, not least that most submissions can be rejected on at least the first page, or even first paragraph!

 

[Tirellan]

US agent Kristin Nelson's comments on whether you include the prologue in the 3 chapters Pub Rants (post of Feb 2nd)

 

[Brian G Turner]

Great link, Tirellan.

 

[HareBrain]

Say you had a prologue, and it couldn't really be chapter one because it was set two years before the rest of the story and there were no other big time gaps in the story, but you didn't want to call it a prologue because some people just don't like the idea of them. Say you gave it a name, and then following it came a page saying "two years later", and you gave the other chapters names but no numbers, would that work? Can you have unnumbered chapters? Or would it be submission suicide?

 

[Belador]

Hi,

Teresa - it's 2,400 words long, which works out at about eight pages of A4 - right in the middle of that awkward range you mentioned!

Tirellan - thanks indeed for the link.

I'm quite concerned to read in the link that many agents often skip prologues altogether as a matter of principle. I'm happy with the quality of my writing in chapter one, but I don't want the prologue skipped just because it's labelled a prologue There's important stuff in there!

I definitely need the content of the prologue as part of the story. Maybe I'll just re-label it as chapter one. Hmm....