Commas

[2ndchance]

Please, help me, I need to find my way out of this cave. I have lost my torch, and my map, and my will...

In simple terms, explain how a comma works, what does it do, what should it do, and can they be used to, empahsize, a word?

Steve X (the kiss is for the girls) (slap on the back for you guys, or a pint).

 

[Ursa major]

Please help me. I need to find my way out of this cave. I have lost my torch, my map and my will....

In simple terms, explain how a comma works. What does it do? What should it do? And can they be used to empahsize a word?

* Waits for Chris/Peter/TJ/Leisha/etc. to give a full-blown account of the comma's functions. *



.

 

[iansales]

See here.

 

[The Judge]

Rather closer to home, have a look at The Toolbox thread at the top of Aspiring Writers, where Peter has written about it in some detail. Basically, a comma is a pointer to show you when to pause in a sentence - just like other punctuation like semi-colons and colons, but in the case of a comma, the pause is very much shorter.

Not quite sure what you mean about emphasising a word. Certainly I wouldn't use commas for that purpose - they aren't leaders, they are followers. They show what you mean, they don't act on their own account, as it were. But if you've an example of what is confusing you, put it up and we can maul it a bit.

In the meantime, in case you skim-read Ursa's post, have another look at the bit where he has misquoted your original question and work out why the changes have been made.

PS why the sexism - don't we members of the fairer sex deserve a pint as well?

 

[2ndchance]

Whoops, Sorry Jane, pint of?
S (x)
Bag o' chrisps too, then down the curry 'ouse lata?

It's coz I don't drink, well, I do, too much coffee...

 

[Ursa major]

I thought the idea was that you ladies were expected to kiss goodbye to the pint, TJ.

 

[Nik]

D'uh...

Reading the wiki recalled my expression after being handed a huge robot control program written in HP Technical BASIC.

"That's, uh, rather more than I expected..."

 

[Erin99]

Speaking of the serial comma...


I have to say, I am a fan of the serial comma. I like the way (most of the time) it's clear, as in:

My parrot swears like a trooper, fake burps, and gives me the V with his claws.
I ate fish and chips, pie and peas, and vanilla ice-cream.

Rather than:

My parrot swears like a trooper, fake burps and gives me the V with his claws.
I ate fish and chips, pie and peas and vanilla ice-cream.

I dunno. There's somthing annoying about leaving off the last comma, to me. "I saw a rabbit, a hare and a camel in my garden."

I mean, you're writing a list, are you not? Then yes, I WILL separate off all my items, thank you very much!!! I actually wonder if all this nonsense of no-serial-commas has come about because of the phrasing of Strunk and White's Elements of Style, and such books, as in "In a series of three or more terms with a single conjunction, use a comma after each term except the last". Perhaps over the years people interpretted that as "no serial comma", not "don't put a comma AFTER the last element in your list, e.g. "I ate peas, chips, and fish[,] today for tea" or "Eating, breathing, and drinking[,] are good for you".

I'm not saying that's what Mr Strunk meant, but hey, it's my theory (that will probably be shredded to bits on here ).

???

Ooh, found this page on serials: The Case of the Serial Comma--Solved! (I can see most people disagreeing with it, though.)

 

[Ursa major]

I really don't like the use of a comma before the and, unless it specifically, in that sentence, aids understanding. My dislike has nothing really to do with rules ("Wrong" or otherwise); to me, it just looks wrong**. (Tolkien puts it in, in the LOTR, but he had to work hard in other areas for me to forgive him for this transgression.)







** - And as someone who probably puts far too many commas in my writing, it's good to have a reason to omit one.

 

[Sephiroth]

I don't like the use of a comma before the and, either. The and does its job as a conjunction perfectly well without the comma. And it drives Leish mental (which is, perhaps, the best reason of all not to use it).

(In actual fact, my decision to use (or not to use) the serial comma is based on how I read the list 'aloud' in my mind. It's a cadence thing. Most often I find that people I know (myself included) speak as if the final serial comma isn't there when reciting a list. Sometimes, however, there is a pause before the final item, and that's when I'd use the comma. Otherwise, I'd only use it if there was true potential for confusion.)

 

[Stephen Palmer]

A comma is a brief intake of breath, slightly emphasising the word just before it (in this case, breath... case... you get the idea!)

 

[Peter Graham]

Hi Steve,

Two of the posts in the Toolbox set out two of the more common uses of the comma.

The problem with reading grammar books is that they all appear to have been written by 300 year old pedagogues who can quip in ancient Greek and who know what a gerund is*, but have no idea how to communicate the "rules" to those of us who are flagbearers of the Brave New World**.

Although a comma can be used in a number of ways, it really is no more than a way of identifying a momentary drawing of breath. Strip back the various uses of the comma and you will nearly always see that little drawing of breath at the root.

A good start point is to read your work aloud. Wherever you find yourself giving a little pause, you should consider using a comma. Longer pauses probably require full stops.

By way of an example:-

"Cor luv a dack ve 'ammers got propah staffed again din't vey?"

Read this aloud and you will find yourself taking little breaths (or giving a little bit more emphasis) to certain parts of that sentence.

You know that "cor" and "luv a dack" are two distinct expressions of surprise amongst your people. So you need some punctuation. It might be an exclamation mark after "Cor" (if you want to emphasise the word) or it might just be a comma.

You will also have taken a tiny pause after the "again". That means you need a comma.

You might have taken a longer pause after "dack". Probably means a full stop or even an exclamation mark - use the exclamation mark to denote surprise in the speaker (rather than resignation at yet another trouncing for the West Hammers).

What all this means is that you can punctuate this sentence a number of ways, all of which are potentially correct:-

1. Amazement at yet another defeat

"Cor! Luv a dack! Ve 'ammers got propah staffed again, din't vey?"

2. Resignation at yet another defeat

"Cor, luv a dack. Ve 'ammers got propah staffed again, din't vey?"

Regards,

Peter


* I'd always assumed it was a small, flightless game bird until Mothballs McLaughlin enlightened me.

** Not me, then.

 

[2ndchance]

Fanx Petie' ol' chap.

I must say, you have an excellent way. I understood this, and that's what I was looking for, an idiots guide, for an english-fool.

I think my biggest issue is with short dialogue, for example. 'Oh, hmmm, is the right, mum?' or 'Mum, err, is that right, I'm shocked?' or is that a full stop, and the question mark goes after, 'Mum, err, is that right? I'm shocked.'

I will, as you know, get there, quickly, especially with the help on hand from so many educated folk.

I so hope this is correct, he-he...
...Steve scowls away and hides behind another coffee.

And we ain't gonna talk 'bout the irons. (hammers, to those who?)

 

[Peter Graham]

Hi Steve,

I will, as you know, get there quickly, especially with the help on hand from so many educated folk.

I've removed one ("get there quickly" is all one phrase), but otherwise I'd say that was pretty much spot on!

Regards,

Peter

 

[The Judge]

I think my biggest issue is with short dialogue, for example: [.] 'Oh, hmmm, is that [the] right, [m]Mum?' yes, that's right (once corrected) or 'Mum, err, is that right, I'm shocked?' no - next one or is that a full stop, and the question mark goes after: [,] 'Mum, err, is that right? I'm shocked.'?** that's it

You could also use ellipses to show hesitation instead of the comma in a sentence like this eg 'Err... is that right, Mum?' - though it's easy to get carried away with them as I know to my cost.

** I've debated with myself where to put the question mark in a sentence like that but I don't think it can go before the colon I've inserted, so must come at the end, even though it looks out on a limb.

 

[Ursa major]

As Peter has mentioned with respect to the comma, punctuation marks perform many functions: one of which is to help the reader with the pace of whatever they're reading. I tend to treat a question mark as having much the same pause quotient as a full stop and so use it where I'd use a full stop (but when the sentence is a question).

So:

"What is it to be: an en suite with a bath, one with a shower, or the use of a shared bathroom?"

has an entirely different feel from

"So what's it to be? Just a warning, friendly like? A little accident? Nothing fatal, you understand. Or would you prefer we stop messing about and put a bullet through your head? It's entirely up to you."

and not just because of the words and context.


(Apologies for the staginess, but I'm in a hurry: Vista wants to restart after an update.)

 

[The Judge]

Er... if it's a choice betweeen the bathroom and a bullet, can I have the bathroom, please. (With shower.)

 

[2ndchance]

Hmmm, interesting, so mum should be Mum. Yet another thing I have been affraid to ask. Just shows how thick I am...

... or should it have been, was? he asks inertly. Not like me, being passive. That's another cent towards the million dollar question. Err... more finacial doom.

And, I'll have the en-suite. Sorry, I had to do that.

 

[chrispenycate]

Um, has the judge gone? Not that I'm scared, of course, but that image (in another thread) of her passing sentence in a gym slip and navy-blue knickers… so I have been berthing (not birthing, please) her a bit widely.

The main reason I've not already been overwhelming you with my erudition and sagacity here – well, reasons; there is also the fact that others have said everything that needed saying – was that my explanations have occasionally been considered difficult to follow. I can't imagine why.

As one whose sentences often rival pages for length, I have frequent need of the humble comma (and of bobbing my sentences, if not the page boy. Essentially, the comma is the shortest hesitation in speech that we can indicate (unless the apostrophe can be considered as a pause). Writing exists to simulate speech, so a comma comes whenever you need to take a breath, or separate a proper name from a mountain of text addressed to it, or the elements of a list, or a subordinate clause, or any of a hundred other reasons you might want a minor interruption in your word flow.

On the other hand, it is not the end of a concept. The list, dialogue, description or whatever, goes on through the minor interference, to terminate happily when its mission is fulfilled. So, if you have a complete sentence, subject, verb, object, some descriptive modifiers, maybe a subordinate clause or two, think long and hard about using a comma to glue it onto the next concept to be expounded; probably its more powerful relative, the full stop (period) or at least the slightly indecisive cousin the semicolon would be a better choice.

There. All very simple, isn't it? I can't imagine why anyone would consider me complicated…

Oh, and I'll take "with bath"; floating in hot water is a marvel when one's joints are less than certain about this 'mobility' concept.

 

[The Judge]

Um, has the judge gone? Not that I'm scared, of course, but that image (in another thread) of her passing sentence in a gym slip and navy-blue knickers… so I have been berthing (not birthing, please) her a bit widely.

Sorry, Chris. I should have considered other people's sensibilities before divulging my inglorious PT past. No gym slip though. (Er... that's probably even worse...) As for 'berthing' - you do know it's only Defendants who sit in the dock?

Steve, 'Mum' with a capital if she is being addressed or referred to by name, as it were, so: 'Hi, Mum. Did you know Ursa had a gun?' and 'Ursa, Mum said to put the revolver down.' But 'mum' without a capital if you are referring to her elsehow** 'My mum prefers baths, as it upsets her when the champagne gets diluted in the shower.'

** OK, it's not a real word, but it ought to be.