Is ASOIAF starting to meander?

[rai]

meander [mɪˈændə]
vb (intr) 1. to follow a winding course
2. to wander without definite aim or direction

the second definition I mean.

I like the general idea of different POVs. For me this is getting too chopy.

For example in LOTR there were a few plots (Frodo/Sam, Merry/Pippin, Gandalf etc.), same with Thomas Covenant, just a few balls in the air so to speak.

but GRRM is putting in 20 major character POVs. I mean, I don't know. I'm reading AFFC and all of the sudden there are half a dozen new characters. I am having enough trouble keeping track of the first 100 characters, I need more characters like I need a hole in the head. And it seems like there is no end in sight. Plus you get like 15 minutes with each character and then you don't see them for half a year..

I'd like less characters and more time with them.

I like it don't get me wrong but I wish he would get to the point. And having 5+ years between books is not helping.

Also, it's getting too sexed up for me. Do we have to know all about every characters 'small chlothes' or what positions they like?

I wish it would be more about the story and less of what we'd politely leave out if we were telling the story.

Is it just me, or would others wish for a more tidy package? I like the story, but it's going to be 5000+ pages and 25+ years to get there..

 

[Ursa major]

It seems to me that there are plenty** of books in which we follow half-a-dozen POVs and about the same number (or less) major plot lines. And that's fine.

But just occasionally, some of us want something more complex, more nuanced. (Given the sales of the later books, there are quite a few of those "some of us".)

Frankly, if I was the only remaining reader of ASoIaF and GRRM was still prepared (however slowly) to write his massively parallel tale, I'd be more than happy. I'd also feel a bit sorry for those who found that they could no longer read on, but not to the extent that I'd want GRRM to pare the final books down to less than a handful of plot-lines and POVs.


By the way, complexity is not, of itself, good or bad; it's the way it's handled. So far GRRM has handled it expertly. (And - ever the optimist - I see the time it takes him to produce further volumes as proof that he's keen to carry on doing it right.)



** - Probably more than we could read, if we set aside those personal issues that make us pick up one book and not another.

 

[The Imp]

You're calling the story "meandering" but what you're really saying is that it's overly complex?

IMO the story isn't meandering at all, although it is multi-faceted. I'd also be willing to bet that the last book of the series, if it ever gets written, won't have 20 POVs. As time passes, characters will disappear in a variety of ways and what are now many trbituaries will end up in one mighty river, if i can use tghat analogy. I think you can already see signs of this happening. The really fun thing will be seeing how GRRm does it.

 

[thesoothsayer]

I thought GRRMartin was starting to meander, not the story itself, but it seems like he's got his focus back, based on his latest ADWD updates.

Here's hoping for the best.

 

[Ursa major]

The Imp is correct: AFFC and the partly-parallel ADWD are the central books in the series and so the overall story should be at its broadest in them.

It isn't as if we started with dozens of up-front plot-lines and we have seen (for example, with Stannis heading north) how plot lines that have looked entirely divorced from each other can come crashing together.

And yes, we did, for example, follow Brienne** travelling about the place, but would we really have liked just a few paragraphs about her travels before she got to utter what might be her last word? On that basis, GRRM might just as well publish a hundred pages or so of detailed plot without bothering with all the world-building and interesting characters.



** - GRRM is keen to show us the devastation of war in Westeros from many perspectives: fugitives, leaders and, as is the case with Brienne, someone who is neither directing great armies or keeping hidden from them. And I'm pleased that he is keen. You can't always see everything from the top or from over your shoulder.

 

[southron sword]

If people dont like how the story is going then dont bother reading it. For those who are interested, read away.

P.S. I like the number of characters and trying to remember who is where and doing what. Like when a character comes into a story that has been missing for a while your like "Oh yeah, forgot about them!"

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Your definition explains it - "wandering without direction"
Correct, GRRM is wandering with direction. The story may have "grown larger with the telling" as he likes to put it, but it's direction hasn't changed - the journey has merely gotten longer. And I for one think that's great. Things happen in GRRM's books, it's not padding for the sake of it.

Mind you, I am glad to not be getting any more Cersei in the next book. Spent too long dipping into that crazed (and sex-starved) mind in AFFC

 

[Moggle]

The books do have a meadering feel to them, there's no doubt about that. One might also describe them as very plodding.

 

[The Imp]

The books do have a meadering feel to them, there's no doubt about that. One might also describe them as very plodding.

Did you like them enough to "plod" through all 4 of them?

 

[Ursa major]

Plodding, adj.: Progressing slowly and laboriously.

Very plodding? Really? Very slow? Very laborious?

Okay, some POV chapters aren't exactly helter-skelter, but that could hardly be said of any of of the books as a whole, nevermind all of them.


You must have read the books merely to achieve a higher state of boredom, Moggle. (If I thought a book was plodding, let alone very plodding, I'd put it down and read something more to my taste.)

 

[The Imp]

I'm biased. I get to pick what I read and I've CHOSEN to read these wonderful books 3 times, and I've actually just started a 4 go round.

I think that GRRM has packed more action, plot twists, wars, epic adventures, character killoffs, etc. into these 4 books to keep all but the most jaded happy. For me, the books move at a nice pace.I'm not saying that everyone would love these books, but I do think that any fan of epic fantasy would at least like them and appreciate what GRRM has done.

 

[southron sword]

The books do have a meadering feel to them, there's no doubt about that. One might also describe them as very plodding.

Did you like them enough to "plod" through all 4 of them?

Yeah!

Why, if people think this series is a "struggle" or "meandering", do they bother with reading it? If im reading a book or series and I start to lose interest then, goooooone! I put it down and read something else. Seems pretty simple to me.

P.S. Your my boy Imp!

 

[viZion]

You know, it *is* possible to like a story/book/author and criticize it/him/her. I love ASOIAF but I don't think it's perfect. Some parts are a bit unfocused and meander and some parts are even extremely boring (hi, Bran!). Overall, it's an awesome series and that's why we read it. Using "if-you-don't-like-it-don't-read-it" as an argument is akin to "NO U". Hey, if you're in love with every single word in the series then that's fine. But others don't have to love everything in ASOIAF or love everything GRRM does to still enjoy the series.

 

[Ursa major]

Yes, viZion, but no-one has said, "if the book meanders pick up another." That would be silly. Some people, I guess, like meandering books and specifically go looking for them.


The suggestions that perhaps one ought to find a book more to one's liking were responses to the "very plodding" comment, which referred to the books and not just certain chapters.

I doubt there's a huge market for very plodding books, i.e. books whose only attractive quality is their very ploddingness. (I expect someone will now tell me that the larger bookstores have Dull and Very Dull shelves.)

 

[mygoditsraining]

Just to jump in, I don't really get the mindset of the small, vocal portion of GRRM fandom that think it's necessary to actually hassle the man over ADWD, as if he somehow owes them the next volume.

I had a look at his (not a) blog the other day and some of the comments from people were bordering on insanity.

I read his books a few years ago, and loved the great sprawl of them. I actually found it refreshing after reading a mass of cut-and-paste Hero's Journey novels to find something that went everywhere, and nowhere, and was bursting with brilliant ideas and great characters.

Yes, they meander. An amazing amount, IIRC. But that's what makes them so good to read; they are the antithesis of a story world where everything is wrapped up neatly at the end, and no-one has any personal problems that can't be solved while the world is being saved.

 

[Ursa major]

The train from this part of the south coast to London passes through a lot of rolling hill country and the track is often confined to cuts (with the occasional tunnel). Often, the cuts aren't that deep, but the view is still restricted in many places to one field (UK-sized, i.e. quite small) on each side. It's easy to get the impression that there's no landscape beyond that very close horizon.

A lot of books are like that. You get to see things in the immediate vicinity of the protagonist (or, if you're lucky, the area immediately around the two or three protagonists). There is little or no hinterland.

To some extent, Dani's travels are a bit like this; it's inevitable where one POV character is travelling far (but not wide?) through strange lands. Westeros, however, is gradually being revealed to us. And not just those mysterious lands north of the wall (where substandard fantasy might spend most of its pages). Lots of it is being shown, lands populated by people whose lives are being devasted by war and its aftermath. Westeros is becoming a real place.

(Even if you doubt this exaggeration, think about your impressions of Westeros as compared to Essos. Essos is, to some extent, merely the setting for Dani's travels; Westeros is far more than that.)

 

[rai]

ok, i can see your guys point that the book is wide and that can be a good thing. (I think the lenght and winding is taking some wind out of its sails).

however is there anyone who likes how GRRM is fixated on 'small clothes'? and do we need to know about Sams 'short sword' if you get my drift? (for gods sake, is this a fantasy or a romance novel?)

 

[The Imp]

ok, i can see your guys point that the book is wide and that can be a good thing. (I think the lenght and winding is taking some wind out of its sails).

however is there anyone who likes how GRRM is fixated on 'small clothes'? and do we need to know about Sams 'short sword' if you get my drift? (for gods sake, is this a fantasy or a romance novel?)

With all due respect, that's just being picky, and IMO unreasonable. I don't think there is any gratuitous sexual content in the series nor do I think GRRM is "fixated" on small clothes. I think the one sexual aspect that people find disturbing is Dany's age when she is first taken by Drogo, but in the world GRRM has created, as in the real world of that era (and maybe this era as well), it was commonplace. If hearing about Sam's sword makes you uncomfortable perhaps you shouyld be reading a tamer series. Maybe LOTR. Oh, wait. Bilbo had a short sword and gave it to Frodo. GASP. Merry and Pippen had short swords as well. You know what THAT means, right?

Maybe just rent G rated movies.

 

[rai]

the one sexual aspect that people find disturbing is Dany's age when she is first taken by Drogo

that's the only thing you think people find disturbing? What about The Hound raping a small girl (and biting off her *** ?) or is that normal?

As for 'small clothes' at first it was ok whatever but as the series goes it has been mentioned 30 times (I would bet).

I could just see it now..

Frodo sets the ring aside for a minute as he adjusts his small clothes...

Gandalf finishes with the chamber pot and pulls on his small clothes...

Tom Bombadil shows the guests their room and lays out fresh small clothes for the company to enjoy...



Why how much great detail we have been missing

 

[The Imp]

How many times are swmall clothes mentioned in AFFC? Just a guess, since that book should be freshest in people's minds.