Is ASOIAF starting to meander?

Rai, don't read GRRM, if you don't like it.

Don't read the Kushiel series. Lots of short swords and pearls. Don't read Anais Nin.

Don't read best selling author Sue Grafton. Now that's someone who mentions underwear a lot.

Don't read anything about Ulysses. He meanders a lot

Don't read Colleen McCollough's books. They meander due to historical accuracy. And never has there been a more difficult set of characters to keep track of. Darn that use of Roman nomenclature.

Don't read anything about the American Civil War. Yikes.

Is GRRM trying to be JRRT? No. It's less formal, more contemporary and more detailed. It's strength is characters,(the unusual kind who may have sex, swear or take a dump) not mythology. Surprise!
 
that's the only thing you think people find disturbing? What about The Hound raping a small girl (and biting off her *** ?) or is that normal?

Well, I don't really find anything in the book too disturbing. I guess I'm looking at it as a realistic representation of the real world. In fact, worse things probably happen everyday, even in this day and age.

And the rapist was probably Rorge in the Hound's helm if you were talking about the Saltpans (since I can't remember a similar incident).
 
And the rapist was probably Rorge in the Hound's helm if you were talking about the Saltpans (since I can't remember a similar incident).
yes, that's what I was talking about, I just got to the part where I found out who it was wearing the Hounds helm.

However, that's what I'm talking about, being too graphic or shocking than necessary especially with such young children involved. I mean the book could have been just as good with or without that extra bit of graphic child abuse IMO. I mean it would not have been missed if left out but GRRM decided for some reason to cross that line.
 
I guess that's why it's in the "Adult" section of the library though, and not teenage or child...?

Read any of the mainstream fiction crime novels about forensics and you'll see 10x worse. Take the "Lovely Bones" which has recently been adapted for example, that features the graphic rape and murder of a teenaged girl. That's what the whole book is about.

What GRRM is describing, and as I recall that was a "I heard it from so-and-so" account as well, nowhere near first-hand, was an admittedly graphic (but removed) line about what happens when a band of murdering psychopaths are given free rein to do what they please in villages which have been stripped of men & knights to defend them by regional wars and unstability. I think he'd be doing a disservice to not say that the Riverlands are in a hell of a state. It's essentially an ungoverned province which has been systematically destroyed by both sides in a major conflict.

If you're saying that GRRM could have sanitised his work then yes, perhaps he could have. I don't see why you're not complaining about some of the other passages where incredibly nasty things happen to adult members of the story, some of whom we actually have time to emphatise with, rather than pick on a particular sentence you don't like.
 
If you're saying that GRRM could have sanitised his work then yes, perhaps he could have. I don't see why you're not complaining about some of the other passages where incredibly nasty things happen to adult members of the story, some of whom we actually have time to emphatise with, rather than pick on a particular sentence you don't like.
You make a good point, and I have read some books about true crime where bad things like this happen, and true GRRM is not glorifying it and as you said it was a second hand account (not as bad as being done in the first hand perspective).

I was not complaining about that rape per-se just gave it as an example to the Imp said the one sex thing people would find disturbing was Dany's age. I was giving this as another example of what many people would find disturbing.

Although rape or murder is bad when done to any age, it's worse when talking about a child. At one time, computer games prohibited killing of kiddies (in the game) as some type of line that does not need to be crossed.

I am not saying it should not be there in the story, but just IMO the story would have been just fine without that little tidbit. It's not central to the story like the murder of the royal family including babe in arms. But Rorge biting off xyz of a child was not necessary (IMO).
 
You make a good point, and I have read some books about true crime where bad things like this happen, and true GRRM is not glorifying it and as you said it was a second hand account (not as bad as being done in the first hand perspective).

I was not complaining about that rape per-se just gave it as an example to the Imp said the one sex thing people would find disturbing was Dany's age. I was giving this as another example of what many people would find disturbing.

Although rape or murder is bad when done to any age, it's worse when talking about a child. At one time, computer games prohibited killing of kiddies (in the game) as some type of line that does not need to be crossed.

I am not saying it should not be there in the story, but just IMO the story would have been just fine without that little tidbit. It's not central to the story like the murder of the royal family including babe in arms. But Rorge biting off xyz of a child was not necessary (IMO).
The difference between the rapes/murders and the Dany story is that Dany's marriage is sanctioned so to speak.It's also a story that you have to be willing to accpet if you want to read the early Dany story, or undertand whom she becomes as a result of being married to Drogo. No one has to like the Hound when hearing about his raping a child, in fact, it makes him even more detestable. As horrible as say, Rorg is as a human being, if you can even call him that, I can utterly reject him and hope that he meets a terrible end. One can't do this with Dany, for a number of reasons. She starts out as a victim, at least by 21st century standards. and she is clearly a character that we hope will succeed. The Dany story is guaranteed to make people uncomfortable in ways that the burality can't. Sex with children is taboo in a way that those admitedly terrible acts can never be.

BTW The average episode of the mainstream TV show "Criminal Minds" contains stuff that is as bad anything Clegane or Rorg ever did. Their "antic" are actually kind of tame at times.
 
blah I thought I posted this already, butg it's nowhere to be found.

For the sake of edification

small·clothes

   /ˈsmɔlˌkloʊz, -ˌkloʊðz/ Show Spelled[smawl-klohz, -klohth
thinsp.png
z] Show IPA
–plural noun 1. British. small, personal items of clothing, as underwear, handkerchiefs, etc.

2. knee breeches, esp. the close-fitting ones worn in the 17th, 18th, and early 19th centuries.

Also, in the book "Seeing Through CLothes", Anne Hollander says women didn't start wearing underwear until the mid 19th century. Before that they wore petticoats and knee socks

from wikipedia

Middle Ages and Renaissance

In the Middle Ages, western men's underwear became looser fitting. The loincloth was replaced by loose, trouser-like clothing called braies, which the wearer stepped into and then laced or tied around the waist and legs at about mid-calf. Wealthier men often wore chausses as well, which only covered the legs.[7]

By the time of the Renaissance, braies had become shorter to accommodate longer styles of chausses. Chausses were also giving way to form-fitting hose,[7] which covered the legs and feet. Fifteenth-century hose were often particolored, with each leg in a different-coloured fabric or even more than one colour on a leg. However, many types of braies, chausses and hose were not intended to be covered up by other clothing, so they were not actually underwear in the strict sense.
Braies were usually fitted with a front flap that was buttoned or tied closed. This codpiece allowed men to urinate without having to remove the braies completely.[7] Codpieces were also worn with hose when very short doubletsvest-like garments tied together in the front and worn under other clothing – were in fashion, as early forms of hose were open at the crotch. Henry VIII of England began padding his codpiece, which caused a spiralling trend of larger and larger codpieces that only ended by the end of the 16th century. It has been speculated that the King may have had the venereal disease syphilis, and his large codpiece may have included a bandage soaked in medication to relieve its symptoms.[7] Henry VIII also wanted a healthy son and may have thought that projecting himself in this way would portray fertility. Codpieces were sometimes used as a pocket for holding small items.[7]

Over the upper part of their bodies, both medieval men and women usually wore a close-fitting shirt-like garment called a chemise in France, or a smock or shift in England. The forerunner of the modern-day shirt, men tucked long chemises into their braies and wore their outer clothing on top. Women wore them underneath their gowns or robes, sometimes with petticoats over the chemise. Elaborately quilted petticoats might be displayed by a cut-away dress, in which case they served a skirt rather than an undergarment. During the 16th century, the farthingale was popular. This was a petticoat stiffened with reed or willow rods so that it stood out from a woman's body like a cone extending from the waist.
Corsets also began to be worn about this time. At first they were called pairs of bodies, which refers to a stiffened decorative bodice worn on top of another bodice stiffened with buckram, reeds, canes, whalebone or other materials. These were not the small-waisted, curved corsets familiar from the Victorian era, but straight-lined corsets that flattened the bust.
There is a myth that Crusaders, worried about the fidelity of their wives, forced them to wear chastity belts. There is no reference, image, or surviving belt to support this story. Most historians of this period are of the view that a chastity belt was worn to prevent sexual assault and that the woman kept the key.[citation needed]
Men's braies and hose were eventually replaced by simple cotton, silk or linen drawers, which were usually knee-length trousers with a button flap in the front.[7]

probably all the info you'll need
 
probably all the info you'll need
good to know, so probably Gandalf, Frodo (etc..) didn't have any small clothes in the first place.

but as far as my reading pleasure, I could care less about 'small clothes' and the less said about them the better.

As for this discussion of GRRM, I respect him and ASOIAF. Of course not everyone will like every little thing about it. But overall it's fine.

And I still have Tolkein to go back to for fantasy with less bodily functions etc..
 
Yes, I agree it's meandering. :)

The problem is that ASOFAI has become more of a soap opera than a story in itself.

While people may get defensive and suggest not reading something if you don't like it, the reason people like me are still reading is because the series started off so well and strong that we hold out hope that it may get back on form.

It really has last focus - there are too many characters, most of which do not have a direct bearing on the plot, but instead provide peripheral information and are effectively a narrative in world building.

Arya is a great example - 6,000 pages into the novel and she *still* hasn't engaged with any of the main plot elements, and has become an inherently redundant character. There are many others.

While showing Jaime and Cersei's points of view allowed for an extra insight into the personal motivations, the whole issue of POV use has gone out of control, and the updates for each novel only promise more POV.

I know lots of people will disagree, I know others will, but I fear ASOFAI has completely lost focus.

And if anyone wishes to get defensive about the disagreement, in buying all of the books to date, and reading them, I consider myself quite entitled to an opinion on the matter. :)

GRRM is a brilliant writer, but I can't help but feel that somebody somewhere should have been more limiting on how far he could explore. Having to split Dances should be a pretty big clue that it's gone out of control and needs reining in. Ironically, the main plot has barely moved from the first book!

2c. :)
 
Yes, I agree it's meandering. :)

GRRM is a brilliant writer, but I can't help but feel that somebody somewhere should have been more limiting on how far he could explore. The main plot has barely moved from the first book. That's lack of focus.

2c. :)
I couldn't have said it better myself..

I think GRRM is a great writer and this is going to be his magnum opus, but I'd like to get where we're going.

It's like the reverse of the Yogie Berra quote: "We're lost but we're making good time"
 
AFFC was my least favorite of the 4 books, mainly because of the inordinate amount of time spent in Dorne and the Iron Islands. I think GRRm had to include that stuff to set up later plotlines, but I pretty much hated a lot of that stuff. As far as plot movement though? There has been some amazing plot movement, given where characters started and where they are now. For example

Robb started out as a sone of a nobleman, became King in the North, died

Cat went from being a content mother of 4 to seeing her husband killed and her family destroyed. And she also got killed

Arya has gone from a little girl doing needelwork to training to become a Faceless man, having tones of adentures in the interim.

Jon goes from being the ******* at the welcoming feast for Robert to becoming LC of the Night's Watch. Lots of stuff in between, including the capturing of Manse Rayder

Bran starts out a little boy. ends up a cripple who is learning to be a warg.

Jaime loses his sword hand and is becoming a different person before our eyes.

Tyrion transofrms from being a fairly conetn drunken dwarf to learning to be a warlord, King's Hand and ultimately killing his father, then having to flee KL.

King Robert- dead

King Renley- dead

King Balon Greyjoy- dead

Dany- goes from being a scared young girl to becoming a woman capable of being married to Droogo, commanding armys and raising dragons

I could go on, but you know the books as well as I do. Is the series too long? Probably. Again, the Iron Isles and Dorne stuff was too long for sure. As far aqs the other POVs? GRRm is the kind of guy that if you ask him the time he'll teach you how to build a watch, tell you where to get the pards, then oversee your work to make sures it's perfect. My hope is that the story will start funneling together in ADWD. By the end of ADWS I'd expect a more clearcut idea of where the overall story is going. Right now we can only speculate.
 
Imp-

I think you just hit on the important point... It'd hard to say anything about meandering until we know where this all goes. I totally get the fear that Martin's walking the same path Robert Jordan did once upon a time, adding more and more characters and just generally getting lost in the details of his story without moving anything along... Seen in that light, the slower pace and expanded PoVs of AFfC could presage trouble to come.

Or, it could just mean that Martin needed to reset a bit after the craziness of ASoS and that Dorne and the Iron Isles will have major roles to play moving forward and we needed to get eyes in those places for the narrative work. There's really no way to know until we see the next book (or even, given how things are broken up, maybe book 6).
 
Imp, what I mean is that as I see it, the major plot line established in A Game of Thrones was based on three parts: the threat of the Others from the north, political re-alignment of Westeros, and Danerys threatened return from the west - and how these would come together and resolve.

Despite four fat follow-on books to AGOT, this major plot line still hasn't progressed much if at all: there is still a threat of the Others from the north, political re-alignment of Westeros is still happening, and Danerys is still threatening to return from the West.

Most of the sub-plots you've mentioned we don't need to see at all - but the issue of over-writing sub plots I think is unfortunately common in the genre at the moment.
 
Actually it's not. Most fantasy books now are restricted to trilogies from what I've seen and storytelling has to be tight and not meander like it does in Martin's books. Btw your post pretty much has summed the biggest problem of ASOIAF.
 
There is something else happening in ASoIaF, Brian, and that is the gradual return of magic to the world. This return isn't made that explicit, but Westeros (south of the Wall) as described is a post-magic society: even the dragons have now died out. And yet, sometimes openly, sometimes more subtly, we see magic is reasserting itself. In some cases - the resucitation of, say, Cat and Melisandra's dubious doings - it's being introduced from places which may or may not have maintained their magic powers. In others - the increased efficacy of Wildfire is one example - the power of magic seems to have returned all on its own. (Or has it?)

As primarily a reader of SF, I tend to want answers to questions such as how and why. Why is magic returning? Is it being invoked? Is it merely another of the strange cycles that work on this world (like the long summers and winters)?

It seems to me that many of the POV chapters that do not directly relate to the Others, Dany and the Political Realignment do have something to do with this deeper question. (For example, Arya met Dondarrion and the Faceless Men, Brienne has met unCat). It's all being implied rather than being spelt out in capitals. I expect that is will become more explicit as we (and Arya) learn more, for example, about the Faceless Men.

Now I may be reading too much into this, and that these are all side issues, but I see GRRM as someone who is as much as a writer of SF as he is of Fantasy (and of Horror). I do not believe that the (few) examples I've mentioned are throwaway incidents. I believe that much is going on which we can't see for what it really is. Now at the risk of forever damning GRRM - or myself - to literary hell, one might suggest that there is a bit of Agatha Christie in all this, in the sense that many of her books introduce us to characters whose plot purpose is entirely one of misdirection. We know GRRM is doing this "openly" - Stannis appearing in the North - but I'd suggest that it is perhaps the dominant, though mostly hidden, feature of the series.
 
Ursa and Brian, you both make good points.

Brian, first off, it's 3 fat followup books to AGOT. I know you know that, I just want to be accurate. Anyway, the points you make about Political, Others and Dragons being the 3 main themes is true, but, just because a plot line hasn't been resolved doesn't mean there hasn't been substantial movement/progress. Using AGOT as our baseline (it is very much like a prologue)-

Politically things are dramatically different. Very different. There are certainly more changes to come, but aren't you satisfied with the sheer volume of events that have occurred to this point, or do you think more should have happened?

The Others are still coming, and we don't know a lot more about them, but we do know a lot more about the land beyond the wall and we also know that the events in the South led to the Lord Commander of the NW to be heir to Winterfell- King in the north. Stannis is in the north and could only have ended up there by having the events in the preceding books happen. Since it SEEMS as if the climax of the plotline might be the showdown between the forces of the South (Men) and the North (Others) I don't think it's reasonable to ask for that leg of your triad to be much further along.

Dragons- Dany starts out the sister of The Beggar king. They are selling off jewelry to make ends meet. Dany goes from this to becoming a genuine Queen leading a very impressive army, and along the way learning how to be a General and wage war. Not to mention the Dragons, which in all reasonableness couldn't appear full grown overnight. She's come a very long way since her introduction in AGOT.

Maybe it's a matter of taste. I like really long, really detailed epic stories. I was an avid fan of king's Dark Tower septilogy (is that even a word?) until he ruined it with what he did in the last book. I don't mind stories within stories and very wordy storytelling. I even like the "soap opera" quality that the POVs create. Perhaps this style isn't for everyone. I guess it's a testament to how good the stories are that people who have major criticisms of them are still fans of the series and are still going to read the next book.
 
Imp..

yes, I am still a fan as well. I agree the parts of AFFC that I am looking at is Dorn, The Vale, Sam, Arya and Brienne that's most of the book I guess that is not part of the main story (at last in a direct 'overt' way).

Basically, everyone that is not Jamie or Cersei is a minor or unimportant POV.

I don't mind the Iron Isle since at least that's getting something done.

But Samwell omg that's not doing anything. And Arya OMG just put me to sleep already. At least those two should have come together since they are/were in the same city.

Brienne, enough already. the chapter where she was following Dick all the way into the wilderness, that's this book in a nutshell.

I guess it's all going to be tied up some time, but it's like this, we are on a boat trip, the land is still getting farther away not closer.
 
Imp, I was counting Storm of Swords as two books, as the paperback version was released in two parts and that's what I have. :)
Ahhhh, thanks for clarifying that Brian. I never knew that.
 
In response to the OP, ASoIaf has been 'meandering' ever since in the first proper chapter we move moved from the Others killing the rangers to a totally different storyline and then again and again. The epic sprawl of the series is part of its appeal.

However, I agree, particularly in AFFC and a few elements of ASoS, that GRRM has become more detail-oriented and events that would have been ignored or only mentioned in passing in earlier books are now recounted across one or more chapters. This 'epic fantasy creep' is something that, among others, Feist, Goodkind, (Tad) Williams and most notably Jordan have suffered from, and is indeed a problem in the genre. The difference is that GRRM does seem to have identified it, but course-correcting for it seems to have been inordinately difficult.

Going by Brian's posts, it is interesting to note that originally ASoIaF was a trilogy consisting of A Game of Thrones, A Dance with Dragons and The Winds of Winter. AGoT originally ended with the Red Wedding and was primarily the story of the War of the Five Kings. ADWD picked up five years later and mainly focused on Daenerys, events in the East and her return to Westeros. TWoW focused on the North, the Others and Jon Snow. All three stories intermingled in each book (Cersei's descent into madness, her arrest, the rise of the Faith etc was also planned for the very original conception of ADWD), but that was the focus in each one.

As it turns out, the original Book 1 became the published Game of Thrones, Clash of Kings and Storm of Swords; the original Book 2 is the now-current A Dance with Dragons, with some elements of A Feast for Crows as well; and Book 3 is planned to sprawl across two volumes instead, The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring. If GRRM's 'fantasy creep' had continued unabated from ASoS and AFFC I'd be fearing for the series being constrained in seven volumes. Word on ADWD is hopeful, but if it ends up with a lot of material being moved from ADWD to the next book, I think we'll see the series extend yet further to eight or nine books, which raises unpleasent memories of the Jordan situation.
 

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