Does free will exist?

[mosaix]

I think our definitions of free will may differ.


I'm arguing from the simple (simplistic?) position that free will is the antithesis of predetermination. Anything that removes 100% predictability - chaotic systems, quantum effects - reinforces free will under this definition.

I never thought of it that way before UM.

My thoughts were along the lines of an entity, making a decision because they want to. My idea with two identical brains was to see if they would make the same decision(s) - if they did then that would tend to indicate that there was no decision involved - just a mechanical process based on the state of the brain at that time.

If I am correct you are saying that even if only mechanical (probably not the right word) processes are involved as long as they are not predictable processes then they tend to indicate free will?

It's not surprising that problems like this have taxed some of the greatest brains on the planet.

 

[Parson]

The whole point about chaotic systems is that their output(s) cannot be predicted from their input(s).

The best explanation I saw of this kind of chaos was that of a pendulum swing through a magnetic field. Either system (mechanical or magnetic) is completely predictable. Put them together and prediction is impossible.

Now think of the brain as containing billions of analogues of pendulums and billions of analogues of magnetic fields. Now where's the predictability?

I'm no physicist, but at first blush it would seem that the example is a classic example of lack of information. If (and I think its a big IF) that a mechanical system is completely predictable, and If (a somewhat smaller but still substantial if) a magnetic field were completely predicable, every logic we have at our disposal would conclude that the marriage of the two under controlled circumstances would also be completely predictable. When they are not the obvious assumption is that we have a lack of information, faulty measurement, or faulty controls.

 

[mosaix]

I'm no physicist, but at first blush it would seem that the example is a classic example of lack of information. If (and I think its a big IF) that a mechanical system is completely predictable, and If (a somewhat smaller but still substantial if) a magnetic field were completely predicable, every logic we have at our disposal would conclude that the marriage of the two under controlled circumstances would also be completely predictable. When they are not the obvious assumption is that we have a lack of information, faulty measurement, or faulty controls.

Hi Parson - there's a lack of information all right - on my part! I don't know which of you is correct!

 

[Interference]

If I may quote one of those "Greatest Brains on the Planet" you mentioned, Mos, Douglas Adams:

To explain - since every piece of matter in the Universe is in some way affected by every other piece of matter in the Universe, it is in theory possible to extrapolate the whole of creation - every sun, every planet, their orbits, their composition and their economic and social history from, say, one small piece of fairy cake.

The man who invented the Total Perspective Vortex did so basically to annoy his wife.

Trin Tragula - for that was his name - was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher or, as his wife would have it, an idiot.

And she would nag him incessantly about the utterly inordinate amount of time he spent staring out into space, or mulling over the mechanics of safety pins, or doing spectrographic amalyses of pieces of fairy cake.

"Have some sense of proportion!" she would say, sometimes as often as thirty-eight times in a single day.

And so he built the Total Perspective Vortex - just to show her.

And into one end he plugged the whole of reality as extrapolated from a single piece of fairy cake, and into the other end he plugged his wife: so that when he turned it on she saw in one instant the whole infinity of creation and herself in relation to it.

To Trin Tragula's horror, the shock completely annihilated her brain ....

I live my life by that series

 

[Ursa major]

I'm no physicist, but at first blush it would seem that the example is a classic example of lack of information.

You may be right. (I was talking about an explanation given on the TV, not in a college/university.)

But then isn't our universe** a rather poor place to be if one wants perfect information?




** - I suppose that in an infinite number of universes, there may be some (an infinite number of them, probably ) in which information can be perfect.

 

[mosaix]

You may be right.

But as far as the randomness of quantum theory I know you are correct UM. Particles appear and disappear at random for ever-so-brief periods of time, bringing a random element to the universe that means predicting everything is not possible.

The question is: does that affect the thought processes in the brain and have an effect on free will?

 

[Parson]

But as far as the randomness of quantum theory I know you are correct UM. Particles appear and disappear at random for ever-so-brief periods of time, bringing a random element to the universe that means predicting everything is not possible.

The question is: does that affect the thought processes in the brain and have an effect on free will?

Or, at least as far as we know they are random.

Ursa Major wrote:

I suppose that in an infinite number of universes, there may be some (an infinite number of them, probably ) in which information can be perfect.

This statement lends itself to all kinds of tom foolery. I will satisfy myself with one less than semi serious response: "perfect information is in the eye of the beholder."

 

[mosaix]

I suppose that in an infinite number of universes, there may be some (an infinite number of them, probably ) in which information can be perfect.

One of those infinite numbers is zero UM.

 

[mosaix]

If the legal system accepted free will did not exist, then both rehabilitation and deterrence are also non-starters. If it is my fate and/or my biology which makes me steal, then no amount of ordinary rehabilitation or deterrence will stop me or those whose fate/biology is similar to mine. In that event, the only options are (a) taking no action against me, leaving me free to pursue my burglarious career; (b) putting me somewhere for all time so that my fate/biology no longer impinges on others; (c) treating me to make the necessary amendments to my biology.

The fourth option is for the Judge to bow down to his/her own fate and/or biology and punish the criminal as he/her would have if he believed he had free will.

In other words the Judge could be just as much at the mercy of of his/her genes as the criminal.

 

[Interference]

I'm just amazed that Free Willy exists

 

[Ursa major]

Why? It's clear from seeing the film that he was continually being framed.


(Luckily, he wasn't being animated, otherwise he'd be in a cel - in fact, lots of them - to this day.)

 

[Interference]

Although, if he joined the fish general infantry, he might be Sea G.I.ed. Then he'd have to do as ordered. Free will? Don't make me laugh. Your choice

 

[Ursa major]

It would have to be more than a fluke for him to get into the fish general infantry. He's a mammal.

 

[Interference]

His mam'll help, I'm sure. She's a big fish.

 

[Ursa major]

What about Grampus?

 

[Interference]

He'll shoal less reticence after a few drinks.

 

[HareBrain]

Yes, my beautiful thread lives! IT LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVES!!!!

Thank you, Mosaix.

 

[mosaix]

Yes, my beautiful thread lives! IT LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVES!!!!

Thank you, Mosaix.

Yes, Harebrain but is that by choice or was it ordained?

 

[Interference]

It chooses to live, but does it exist?

 

[mosaix]

What made me look up this old thread was a radio program on Determinism, not something I'd heard of before.

Basically Determinists say that the Universe was created with a specific set of laws and given that everything in the Universe operates by those laws then, from the moment the Universe was created, everything that was going to happen was already determined.

Food for thought.