The minor open ended plots...

[xLORDSNOWx]

Everyone has discussed the major open ended plots like:

1) R+L=J Theory
2) Howland Reed's resurfacing
3) Who's the three heads of the Dragon
4) Bastards of Noble blood
5) Brieenes last word
6) etc., etc, and etc

How about the minor ones that havent been discussed as much (my apologies if the following already have) Has anyone truly went through every thread? TK dont answer that

Hear are some of my minor plots that could have a great influence:

1) Cersie reversing (Maekar or Maegors) 300 year rule on disarming the sept (in which she was able to lessen the crown debt by 900k+)
a. How much will this come into play later on
b. Why were they told to disarm in the first place?
c. The High Sparrow didnt think too long about either reversing the rule or taking the nearly 1million in gold
2) Cersie not paying the Iron Bank when the Braavosi came to collect.
a. The Iron Bank has a saying something like "The Iron Bank always gets its due"
b. Will they understand that the throne doesnt want to pay until the Realm has gotten back on its feet, so to speak
3) Nymeria and her wolf pack attacking
4) etc. etc...

Does anyone else have any other minor plots that could have a major affect? I know some may just be fluff or things to throw you off, but i think most is somehow connected

 

[Arthur_Connelly]

Good idea.

1-
a) I'm thinking this will play a big part. Cersei is going to be tried by the faith and likely found guilty. The same goes for Margery. And Lord Tyrell is marching on the city. But, the Faith is armed now with both the Swords and the Stars. While the army is a bit ragtag, it's also likely to be very fanatical.

b) The reason it was disbanded in the first place is because the Faith rose up against Aegon I's sons after his death. A standing army is a bad thing when it isn't in the hands of the King and the High Septon can essentially oppose who he chooses to.

c) Who would? Money is one thing. Having an army is another. The High Septon seems like a reasonable sort of fellow compared to the various people in power we've seen so far. He made a pragmatic decision right there. And Cersei was an idiot for letting him do so. The Faith threatened the Targs back when they still had dragons, think about that for a minute. Considering how badly the common people have suffered because of the war and the fact that winter is indeed coming, I expect the Poor Fellows to have lots of new recruits in the near future.

2-
a)They're already calling in loans. Paying the loans back will bankrupt a few people and perhaps ruin an already poor economy in the face of a winter that few were prepared for. I'm thinking it will cause more unrest and rebellion that will feed back into #1.

b)I don't think they'll care considering how they were blown off by Cersei and stalled by Rosby.

3-
This is an interesting one that I hadn't given much thought to. The wolves reflect their owners maybe. Arya was lost and tried to form a new pack (Gendry and that lot) only to have it fracture. Nym's pack is still together and growing. This will likely play a part, aside from killing especially sinful horses, but I can't say what it will be. Unless a wolf pack fights against the Others and their ice spiders.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Re: Cersei & Margery. I'm pretty sure that the penalty for their crimes is death. They are both in BIG trouble. The High Septon runs Kings Landing now and the Small Council are either fled, dead or toeing the line. Even assuming Gregorstein can win a trial by combat and 'free' Cersei, she is really in the crapper with most of her support gone or changed sides. At least Margery has an army coming for her - she and her friends may "escape" by being forced to join the sisterhood, I don't think the same offer will be on the table for Cersei. She won't be killed though - she has to suffer and live long enough for the valonqar to come and get her

Re: Braavos - well they are a wild card aren't they? Would the Sealord risk open conflict with Westeros? Unlikely as the other Free Cities would take turns pounding their homeland while their back is turned. Calling in their debts and refusing anymore is about as bad as I can see them getting, perhaps with some sort of trade blockade thrown in for good measure. With the Arbor Fleet off in Dragonstone (and more concerned with their homes), the Crown Fleet gone with Aurane Waters (to Dany??) and the Ironborn reavers, only White Harbour and possibly Gulltown have any sort of naval force left and they won't be able to do much apart from try and protect their own interests.

Re: The Eyrie. Petyr seems to be quite happy staying put and staying out of the war. He's risen about as far as he can and I think he knows it. He'll struggle to keep what he's got and Sansa is his ace in the hole. Will his unrequitted lust for Cat mess up his plans though? Can he really wed Sansa to Hardying to firm up his rule and not feel jealous/remorseful? And Robert Arryn doesn't inspire confidence. Will his health fail completely or will he go crazy bananas and force Littlefinger to Moon Door the little ****? And despite GRRM's amused confusion on how minor characters can be so popular (Syrio) I want to see more Bronze Yohn Royce. He looks a tremendous badass.

Re: Theon. We know he's in Dance. What does he do? What can he do? Will the Boltons be obeyed by the Umbers? Most noble families will know the Stark family and will see straight through "Arya" in a heartbeat. And how nervous does Bolton feel about having a Stark ******* as LC and Stannis' army at the Wall? Jon will most certainly find out his part in the Red Wedding. How will he react? Moat Cailin to the south won't follow Bolton, the ironborn control most of the west and to the north there's more enemies. He will have to react, but how?

Re: Jaime. It seems he's not exactly riding to his sister's rescue. So where does he go next? Lannisport? The Eyrie? Dorne for Myrcella? I can't remember any clue as to his next move in the book. As LC of the Kingsguard his place is with Tommen in KL so logic says he should go there, but then logic says he shouldn't never have left Tommen in KL anyway. With Loras gone, there was only really Balon Swann who he could rely on. Are all of Jaime's children destined to die?

Re: Jorah. He's still in love with Dany but is not permitted to be with her. He's under death sentence in Westeros, so where does he go? King Cleon? Join up with the Sons of the Harpy? Can he go from loving Dany to wanting her dead?

 

[viZion]

Wow...Theon...judging by his preview chapter that was released on Amazon, I'd say Theon has become pretty much useless to do anything else in the story. I'm thinking he's still got a POV simply so we can see what's happening up there in the North. Theon is well and truly broken both physically and mentally.

For those of you who may have missed it...it's a doozy...
Amazon.co.uk: Extract from A Dance with Dragons

 

[Clansman]

I agree with Viz. The future does not look bright for Theon. Actually, death would be an improvement on his present circumstances, which are not pretty, no sir, not at all.

 

[The Imp]

It speaks volumes about GRRM's abilities as a writer hat he is able to make me feel pity for Theon. I disliked him beginning with chapter 1 of AGOT, and the dislike turned into something resembling hatred after his Winterfell escapade. I wonder how long he'll remain useful after he's "identiified" the fake Arya as the real one.

 

[Culhwch]

It's funny because the seeds for Theon to be a sympathetic character are there - being forcibly taken from his family and home, only to return and find himself an outcast through no real fault of his own - but it doesn't play out that way. As contrasted with Jaime, who also starts as more of an active villian but goes a long way towards redemption...

 

[Boaz]

Cul, I'd never actually compared Jaime and Theon before from this perspective. Thanks, this gives me something to delve into during my quiet moments...

Off the top of my head... both are villains. Jaime secretly singles out Bran for death, while Theon publicly (yet not really) executes Bran. Jaime secretly conducts an affair with his own sister, Theon publicly seduces every barmaid, milkmaid, miller's wife, and captain's daughter that will let him.

By the way, I might include info from the ADWD Theon teaser, so.... SPOILER ALERT.

Both have been mutilated. Jaime lost a hand, Theon lost a fingertip.

Both have serious problems relating to their families; brothers, disapproving fathers, flirtatious sisters, and scheming uncles. Tywin wants to give Jaime everything if only Jaime will renounce the Kingsguard, while Balon will give Theon nothing that he cannot earn. Jaime loves his brother and wants to protect him because Tyrion looks up to him, Theon hates his older (and deceased) brothers who tortured him. Jaime has Cersei, Theon was tricked by Asha into making plans to bed her. Jaime fears he's made an enemy of Kevan, while poor Theon has Ayatollah Khomeini, the Terminator, and Hitler as his uncles.

Both were taken from their fathers at young ages. At fifteen or sixteen, Jaime was sworn into the Kingsguard where his eyes were opened to the political machinations of the kingdom. At age nine (or so), Theon was taken as a hostage by Eddard Stark to ensure Balon Greyjoy's obedience to the Iron Throne. Jaime knew that King Aerys II raped Queen Rhaella and how he murdered Rickard and Brandon Stark, Theon was educated right alongside Eddard's own sons in politics, war, government, history, etc.

Both are known for their parts in the fall of major castles. Jaime slew Aerys II during the sack of King's Landing, Theon betrayed Robb and took Winterfell. Jaime was labeled the Kingslayer, but no one knew he actually saved the lives of the entire populace. Theon was blamed for killing Bran and Rickon and for burning Winterfell to the ground... he actually did none of these.

Both were defeated by guile. Jaime in the Whispering Wood, Theon at Winterfell.

Both have been imprisoned. Jaime at Riverrun, Theon at the Dreadfort.

Both have earned ignominious nicknames. Kingslayer and Turncloak.

Both have searched for the missing Stark children. Jaime has looked for Sansa and Arya, while Theon has searched for Bran and Rickon. Jaime sent Brienne (an honorable woman) to finish the job, Theon took Reek's (Ramsay's) advice.

Both dreamed big... and both have altered their dreams. Jaime dreamed of being the next Arthur Dayne, the next Dragonknight, the next greatest ever, while Theon dreamed of becoming a powerful lord, a King. Jaime now dreams of doing justice, Theon now dreams of pleasing his torturer.

They are the only two characters to negotiate during a POV with the Boltons. Jaime with Roose in ASOS, and Theon with Reek (Ramsay) in ACOK.

Motivations... Psychological changes... Mores... Hmmm, I'll need to go think about this...

 

[Culhwch]

Wow, did you ever take that idle post and run with it, Boaz...

 

[Boaz]

Idle? I thought you were treating the themes of actions/consequences and redemption/action and heroes/victims seriously. Viz, Imp, and Clanny commented upon Theon's attractiveness/ugliness and you brilliantly compared him to Jaime...

But what can we make of these similarities in the stories of Jaime and Theon? What is the comment upon the human condition that GRRM is making?

 

[Culhwch]

I was serious enough, Boaz, but they were just idle musings. I never expected the next poster to write a dissertation about it. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed reading it...

But what can we make of these similarities in the stories of Jaime and Theon? What is the comment upon the human condition that GRRM is making?

The world loves a blonde?

 

[Boaz]

If you don't read anything homoerotic into my answer, I'll confess that I have loved many blondes.

 

[southron sword]

I like brunettes. between 21 and 30. active. non smoker. social drinker..... wait, this isnt eharmony? Wrong page......

 

[Clansman]

Boaz, you get the prize for post of the year. I agree with Culhwch, that was incredibly insightful. Just goes to show that writiers like GRRM do not do anything that is really "filler" material. He is trying to demonstrate something.

Jaime has started on the road to redemption. Will Theon?

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

You know, I really have to wonder exactly how much "redeeming" Jaime has truly done. He's changed certainly, losing your arrogance & sword-hand in one fell swoop will do that to you but what has he done? So far he's thought lots of nice things about life and how to be honourable but let's examine what he's actually done.

a) stopped Brienne from being killed & sent her off (alone I add) with a Valryian sword to go find Sansa Stark.
b) stopped Edmure from being hung outside Riverrun and negotiated a peaceful end to the siege of Riverrun.
c) stopped having sex with/protecting Cersei.

Now in the case of (a) from the outside how different is that from "A Lannister always pays his debts" - Brienne had saved his life and he'd given his word to Catelyn to free Sansa. You could argue that he was ridding himself of a nuisance and washing his hands of the whole thing. He could have used his influence with King Tommen and the Small Council to do more to find her - after all, Cersei wants her tried for killing Joffrey - but he did not.

In the case of (b) it could just as easily be argued that he was merely saving Lannister (and once they'd bent the knee, Tully) men from killing themselves so they could serve King Tommen and House Lannister's interests against Stannis & the Ironborn and keep the throne for his family.

With (c) he did actually have sex with Cersei on his return to Kings Landing (during her mourning of Joffrey no less) and it was her rejection of his advances and clumsy attempts at manipulation and frustration/feelings of inadequacy at his deformity which caused their rift, not any newfound sense of morality.

So, how is he redeemed? He may be a bit less of a complete scumbag but he still intended to kill an innocent child, fathered 3 illegitimate children who rule Westeros through deception and all he seems to be doing is trying to stop some of the flames he himself created by attacking Ned and setting this entire chain of events into motion. I find this whole "Jaime is redeemed" statement very misleading. Even freeing Tyrion was because he was family and not because he really thought he was innocent. Otherwise he'd have stopped him again when Tyrion said he had killed Joffrey.

The only way we even "know" he is trying to redeem himself is purely through his PoV internal monologues. Had we seen Jaime's actions through the eyes of another would we have drawn the same conclusion? Just a thought

 

[Boaz]

Very good post, WS.

I find this whole "Jaime is redeemed" statement very misleading.

I agree that his redemption is not complete, nor that it is even well under way. Jaime is interested in changing, but he's struggling with it. He knows he's hated. He knows the majority may never know of his change of heart or of his good intentions, but I think that he deeply desires to have his brothers of the Kingsguard (now and in the future) know that he is not a villain.

But his wishing it does not make it true. As you asked, "Had we seen Jaime's actions through the eyes of another would we have drawn the same conclusion?" I think the answer is definitely not. Since the beginning of his change of heart, he's negotiated Roose Bolton's betrayal of Robb Stark, he's had sex with the Queen Regent, he's broken his oath by taking the field against the Tullys, and he's sent a hired sword after Sansa. But then again, isn't that what drove Jaime towards self-serving behavior in the first place?.. Finding that people were not interested in understanding his motivations; they were only interested in judging him.

So how does Theon compare now? It's hard because Jaime is so much farther down the path than Theon. It's also hard because I'm posting instead of working.... and I cannot really get my mind going on either. How's that for a cop out?

 

[TK-421]

Oh crud.

This discussion is well under way now and I do not have the heart nor the inclination to point which past threads discussed some of these topics already, or at least touched on them. Especially with Boaz being the man of the hour with his insight.

Now there is a statement in his post, I would not agree with: Jaime dreams of doing justice. I think this is giving him way too much credit. Jaime is more interested in revenge and teaching his sister a lesson than being a champion of justice. He's done what he has in AFFC because he knows it's the right thing to do and it would go against his sister, not because of this overwhelming sense to give justice to the smallfolk or others.

Now, dear Boaz, you have started to explain and I agree with you but one cannot say he dreams of this. I don't think he's an idealist.

 

[Ursa major]

If you don't read anything homoerotic into my answer, I'll confess that I have loved many blondes.

You should be okay with that statement, Boaz: you mentioned blondes (F), not blonds (M).


(Or perhaps this is just an Old World thing.)

 

[Boaz]

Uh.....

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

I wonder how much more Jaime changes once he gets better with his left hand. As WS mentioned earlier, this change may have more to do with losing his hand than anything else. On his way back with Brieene, he was only thinking of bedding Cersie (no change there). Once his hand was chopped off, his dealings and worth to Cersie changed (grew apart). He turned down being the hand (whats a hand without a hand, he stated)

The real question should be, if he had both hands, would that have brought about any change in him? He even made the excuse that his vow to Cat could have easily been attributed to being drunk and having a blade to your throat.

Either way, i still like him. However, i think its more GRRM brainwashing me with his good writing skills