A Canticle for Leibowitz by Walter M. Miller, Jr

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I would be shocked if there were not some but none come to mind. However some very famous Christian authors also wrote SF. Probably the most famous from the Christian point of view was C. S. Lewis who wrote the very solid "The Space Trilogy" and then in the Fantasy realm wrote one of the all time greats "The Chronicles of Narnia." Perhaps in the Christian world he is even better known for two other works: "Mere Christianity" and "Surprised by Joy." He was the very good friend and member of the same Christian small group "The Inklings," J. R. R. Tolkien author of the Fantasy Master Work "The Lord of the Rings."

C. S. Lewis was a household name for me, before I even knew about "The Space Trilogy" and "The Chronicles of Narnia."
 
Good point. I enjoyed the space trilogy: they seemed so allegorical and removed from reality (or "hard" science fiction) as to seem almost like psychadelic fantasy. That Hideous Strength, although perhaps not a total success, is a really interesting book, seemingly influenced by Arthurian myth and Orwell and/or Huxley's thoughts on dictatorships and brainwashing as well as Christianity. I can't think of much like it.
 
Being honest I really did not enjoy this book. I had a spell recently of reading apocalyptic fiction and took from The Chrons a short list of recommended reads:

Earth Abides
I am Legend
The Stand
The Road
On The Beach
Alas, Babylon
Swan Song

Out of all of these the only one I didn't enjoy, and the one with the highest literary acclaim, is A Canticle for Leibowitz. I had to force myself to finish it.

I honestly wondered what all the fuss was about.

Cheers
Crooksy
 
I think it is so well regarded because it is fairly unique in the SF world. It does not hold religious people up as Charlatans and in some way shows them as the hope of the world, while at the same time mocking organized religion with their holy writ being a grocery list. When it was written this was cutting edge stuff, and still holds our interest decades later. But on purely an apocalyptic basis I would hold it to be a marginal read.
 
I think one of the reasons why this one still holds the interest outside the sf community, is that is works on the level of a parable, as does much classic literature. There are various metaphorical and allegorical significances to it; it doesn't necessarily "spell everything out" as so much sf does (there is a passage from a letter by Brian Aldiss to a fan, quoted in Colin Greenland's The Entropy Exhibition where Aldiss criticizes said fan for having lost the ability to read more standard, demanding literature by having read too much sf, and thus having fallen into the habit of expecting things to be "diagrammed" for consumption -- there is a fair degree of justice to this charge, in my view), and it does explore these questions with a fair degree of respect.

I would, however, disagree about the view of the established church. Miller may have felt that there were serious problems with much of it, but there is nonetheless a strong element of doctrinal belief in the more fundamental issues -- e.g., the question of euthenasia in case of incurable conditions (such as the radiation poisoning in the novel). Being, as I recall, a recent convert to Catholicism, such a stance should not be surprising....
 
But it was recommended to me as a SF book which took religion seriously. I cannot agree with that assessment. It took people who had religious impulses seriously, but not religion. The religion that the monks pursue is uninformed at best, a farce at worst. God is not a player in the book. This book could have been written by an atheist without any qualms. (I have no idea if it was.)
I really can't understand your interpetation. Having just finished reading this (for the first time), I came away with the definite impression (even before I knew anything about the author) that it was written by someone who genuinely believed in God.

And I don't know what you mean when you say "God is not a player in the book". Do you say this because it wasn't made clear in the story that the will of God (as espoused by the church) was the right one? No, the reader wasn't led to believe one view or another, rather they were left to make up their own mind. The moral dilemmas in the story were explored in an intellectually honest way, without (I feel) deliberately trying to bias the arguments or didactically convey the authors beliefs.

Religous people in the real world act on faith, without always find it easy to do what is right or having the miraculous to re-inforce their convictions. In this sense, God isn't a player in the world we know. Those who believe in him, who try to live their lives in accordance with his will, do so without any overt action on the part of God or any unquestionably acts of divine intervention. So, I think it's fair to say that Miller did indeed take religion seriously, making God's presence felt as strongly as it is every day life.
 
Perhaps in the Christian world he is even better known for two other works: "Mere Christianity" and "Surprised by Joy." He was the very good friend and member of the same Christian small group "The Inklings," J. R. R. Tolkien author of the Fantasy Master Work "The Lord of the Rings."

Are you forgetting The Screwtape Letters?
 
I really can't understand your interpetation. Having just finished reading this (for the first time), I came away with the definite impression (even before I knew anything about the author) that it was written by someone who genuinely believed in God.

And I don't know what you mean when you say "God is not a player in the book". Do you say this because it wasn't made clear in the story that the will of God (as espoused by the church) was the right one? No, the reader wasn't led to believe one view or another, rather they were left to make up their own mind. The moral dilemmas in the story were explored in an intellectually honest way, without (I feel) deliberately trying to bias the arguments or didactically convey the authors beliefs.

Religous people in the real world act on faith, without always find it easy to do what is right or having the miraculous to re-inforce their convictions. In this sense, God isn't a player in the world we know. Those who believe in him, who try to live their lives in accordance with his will, do so without any overt action on the part of God or any unquestionably acts of divine intervention. So, I think it's fair to say that Miller did indeed take religion seriously, making God's presence felt as strongly as it is every day life.

I think the one place I would disagree strongly with you here is God's not "being a player in the world" -- at least, the world of the book. The presence of The Wandering Jew -- a figure the direct result of a curse by God (in the form of Christ) for rejecting him on the way to Calgary -- and Rachel (see below) makes it pretty clear that God is active in the world of the novel; just not in the "neon sign" manner which would indisputably say to the people of that world "Hello there; this is God speaking. Listen up!" This follows the entire line of argument which claims that God refrains from such direct, unmistakable intervention in our world in order to leave us free choice whether to believe or not (an argument to which I do not subscribe, but still one which is firmly supported by a large percentage of believers, and even many "on the fence"). He takes actions which certainly indicate the possible presence of a divine mover, but leave open the possibility of natural causes.

It is interesting and appropriate that Miller chose The Wandering Jew, as this resonates with the sort of era from which that figure came, and which is deliberately evoked by the Church of his novel; that of the early Middle (or Dark) Ages through the present; as this figure emerged during the Middle Ages originally (see, for instance, Sabine Baring-Gould's chapter on this theme in his Curious Myths of the Middle Ages).

As for Rachel and Mrs. Grales... I may have said this earlier, but it strikes me very strongly that this is a deliberate mirror image of Mary and the infant Jesus; there we had a mother who was either a virgin (as in common acceptance) or "a young woman" -- the argument having been frequently made that the idea of her being a virgin is due to a mistranslation of the word for "an unmarried daughter" in the original. (Strong's Biblical Concordance: "parthenos": "a maiden; by implication an unmarried daughter"; emphasis mine.) Mrs. Grimes, obviously, is neither young nor a virgin. Christ was born, in the original tale, with considerable fanfare (announced by the angels; signaled by the brightest star in the firmament; traced by the Wise Men of the East; etc.), and as a male; here we have a second coming very much as "a thief in the night", coming unannounced and unheralded, and as a female through a woman who, by her own inner innocence and role as the sister/mother (look at how she treats Rachel; more as her child than her twin) is herself, the text would indicate, redeemed. The air of benediction in the final meeting of Rachel and Dom Zerchi, is itself something of a deliberate inversion of what happens between John the Baptist and Christ when the latter is baptized and the Holy Ghost appears; here there is no need even of a symbolic baptism, for the war has reached its end, and "there will be a new heaven and a new earth".

In all this, there is a strong reassertion of Biblical prophecy being fulfilled; of pseudo-Biblical characters, with their symbolic importance being reinforced (note that Benjamin is not present in the latter part of the novel -- his wanderings, his punishment, has also reached its end with the second coming); of an air just short of obvious miracles in favor of implied miracles... in other words, very much the air of a Deity active in the world, but who does work "in mysterious ways", rather than simply announcing his presence by open fiat.
 
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I really can't understand your interpetation. Having just finished reading this (for the first time), I came away with the definite impression (even before I knew anything about the author) that it was written by someone who genuinely believed in God.

And I don't know what you mean when you say "God is not a player in the book". Do you say this because it wasn't made clear in the story that the will of God (as espoused by the church) was the right one? No, the reader wasn't led to believe one view or another, rather they were left to make up their own mind. The moral dilemmas in the story were explored in an intellectually honest way, without (I feel) deliberately trying to bias the arguments or didactically convey the authors beliefs.

Religous people in the real world act on faith, without always find it easy to do what is right or having the miraculous to re-inforce their convictions. In this sense, God isn't a player in the world we know. Those who believe in him, who try to live their lives in accordance with his will, do so without any overt action on the part of God or any unquestionably acts of divine intervention. So, I think it's fair to say that Miller did indeed take religion seriously, making God's presence felt as strongly as it is every day life.

I would agree with your assessment from the point of view of the people in the book. Their situation is much like ours, God seldom acts in our world in unequivocal ways. I know of no instance that a dedicated skeptic could not find another answer for the action that a person of faith, like myself, would take for the work of God in our world.

My point was rather in that we were in on the "secret" about who Leibowitz was, and the whole religious scene was in fact a sham. Leibowitz was in no sense a god, let alone God. Therefore I maintain that the book took religious people seriously. They are portrayed in a quite positive manner, but the religion they were following was nothing more than a tragic mistake. Was there a God involved? Quite possibly, but not the God they were worshiping.

J.D. points to some significant correspondence to Christian and Jewish mythology which might indicate that God is present, but in an extremely veiled way. I suppose that might be the point, but if it is, it is far to subtle for my liking.
 
My point was rather in that we were in on the "secret" about who Leibowitz was, and the whole religious scene was in fact a sham. Leibowitz was in no sense a god, let alone God. Therefore I maintain that the book took religious people seriously. They are portrayed in a quite positive manner, but the religion they were following was nothing more than a tragic mistake. Was there a God involved? Quite possibly, but not the God they were worshiping.

Where, in the novel, is it indicated they see Leibowitz as a god of any sort? He begins as a "Beatus" and is eventually given status as "Sanctus", a saint, an intercessor between the common parishioners and God, much the same as any other saint in the Canon. As for his biography... no secret is made of this, certainly not in the Church nor, as far as I remember, with the flock either. And, of course, he is hardly the first (and is unlikely to be the last) saint to have a more than slightly tarnished life. (See, for instance, Saint Augustine.)

With this aspect, I think Miller is very much saying that, despite the human errors -- cf. one of the abbots' musings on the variety of previous abbots of the monastery, from superb examples to ninnies -- which inevitably creep into a structure as large as the Church, the truth of the religion itself is so large and so important that these become, at most, minor blemishes, if even that. Even such a faulted and flawed person as Leibowitz serves a divine purpose in the end, and his conversion and (at least) apparent redemption later in life is an example of how even the evil that went before serves to promote the good which follows after.

J.D. points to some significant correspondence to Christian and Jewish mythology which might indicate that God is present, but in an extremely veiled way. I suppose that might be the point, but if it is, it is far to subtle for my liking.

If you're referring to The Wandering Jew as part of Jewish mythology, you'd be seriously off there. This is very much a Christian tradition, and would be anathema to Jews. It was evolved during some of the most anti-Semitic periods in Christian history, hence has fallen rather out of favor today despite its powerful symbolic importance to the stories of refusal and redemption. Nor do I see God's presence in the novel as at all veiled. It really is a case of a rather realistic handling of religion as a working belief system with a basis in divine truth in a fallen world, and therefore it cannot have something as blunt as, e.g., what we have with Adam and Eve hearing God walking in the Garden. In the context of the novel, that would completely rob the various situations of any value, either dramatically or metaphysically. There would be no heroism, nor any need for faith, were such to be the case. Zerchi's act of faith in the justice of God, and the reason for his allowing the suffering of the child -- the eternal question of the problem of evil -- and the penalties he suffers due to this faith, is very much at one with the numerous tales of the martyrs who suffered for their beliefs in the face of an unbelieving, even if generally humane, world. Such a realistic "distancing" effect (I'm using the literary, not literal, term here, given that I believe that the presence of God is by no means distant in the novel itself, it is only, at most, apparently so) is what allows for the poignancy and genuine tragedy, yet at the same time the hope, of the novel (e.g., the scene with Rachel and Zerchi; the mission to the other planets -- the "new heaven and new earth").

Frankly, I think it is one of the best, most moving, and most challenging of religious novels I've read, because it doesn't pull its punches. It doesn't present any easy answers to the troubling questions concerning religion, but nonetheless (in artistic terms at least, if not philosophically) deals with the entire issue with great compassion and seriousness, without being devoid of the leavening of humor.

So no, I don't think the religion presented here is at all a "tragic mistake" -- at least, no more so than I think is the case with all religion in the final analysis. (But even given that view, there is much of beauty and genuine human pathos and compassion which can, and has, emerge(d) from religion.) I would argue that Miller simply paints it as honestly as possible, given the milieu of the novel... which is, after all, based very much on the history of religious movements (good and bad) in our own world.
 
J.D. said:
I think the one place I would disagree strongly with you here is God's not "being a player in the world" -- at least, the world of the book. The presence of The Wandering Jew -- a figure the direct result of a curse by God (in the form of Christ) for rejecting him on the way to Calgary -- and Rachel (see below) makes it pretty clear that God is active in the world of the novel; just not in the "neon sign" manner which would indisputably say to the people of that world "Hello there; this is God speaking. Listen up!"
I guess that's what I mean really; the miraculous nature of the wanderer was made clear to the reader but not to any of the characters he interacted with (they disbelieved his references to longevity as mad ramblings) or the world at large.
Parson said:
J.D. points to some significant correspondence to Christian and Jewish mythology which might indicate that God is present, but in an extremely veiled way. I suppose that might be the point, but if it is, it is far to subtle for my liking.
Fair enough, but I think that if it had been too overt, less veiled, it wouldn't have reached as wide an audience, appealing to both believers and athiests alike.
 
Where, in the novel, is it indicated they see Leibowitz as a god of any sort? He begins as a "Beatus" and is eventually given status as "Sanctus", a saint, an intercessor between the common parishioners and God, much the same as any other saint in the Canon. As for his biography... no secret is made of this, certainly not in the Church nor, as far as I remember, with the flock either. And, of course, he is hardly the first (and is unlikely to be the last) saint to have a more than slightly tarnished life. (See, for instance, Saint Augustine.)

With this aspect, I think Miller is very much saying that, despite the human errors -- cf. one of the abbots' musings on the variety of previous abbots of the monastery, from superb examples to ninnies -- which inevitably creep into a structure as large as the Church, the truth of the religion itself is so large and so important that these become, at most, minor blemishes, if even that. Even such a faulted and flawed person as Leibowitz serves a divine purpose in the end, and his conversion and (at least) apparent redemption later in life is an example of how even the evil that went before serves to promote the good which follows after.
I was operating under the assumption that it was the grocery list that Leibowitz left which constituted their Scripture. I do not recall the Bible or any other holy book mentioned. I was more than a little aggravated from the moment I started reading the story that everything in the story was a sham in terms of the fact that they "monks" were living their lives and sometimes making sacrifices and other noble choices with them in the service of a man who was a normal human being long since dead and gone. --- As my memory of these things never equals yours you have me wondering if I lost a key part. --- I've been known to do this before. When I read the Hobbit I understood "Middle earth" to be a place, which I just couldn't buy, and one of the posters here said that he was sure that the line went "in the time of Middle Earth" which would have helped me buy the story immensely.



If you're referring to The Wandering Jew as part of Jewish mythology, you'd be seriously off there. This is very much a Christian tradition, and would be anathema to Jews. It was evolved during some of the most anti-Semitic periods in Christian history, hence has fallen rather out of favor today despite its powerful symbolic importance to the stories of refusal and redemption. Nor do I see God's presence in the novel as at all veiled. It really is a case of a rather realistic handling of religion as a working belief system with a basis in divine truth in a fallen world, and therefore it cannot have something as blunt as, e.g., what we have with Adam and Eve hearing God walking in the Garden. In the context of the novel, that would completely rob the various situations of any value, either dramatically or metaphysically. There would be no heroism, nor any need for faith, were such to be the case. Zerchi's act of faith in the justice of God, and the reason for his allowing the suffering of the child -- the eternal question of the problem of evil -- and the penalties he suffers due to this faith, is very much at one with the numerous tales of the martyrs who suffered for their beliefs in the face of an unbelieving, even if generally humane, world. Such a realistic "distancing" effect (I'm using the literary, not literal, term here, given that I believe that the presence of God is by no means distant in the novel itself, it is only, at most, apparently so) is what allows for the poignancy and genuine tragedy, yet at the same time the hope, of the novel (e.g., the scene with Rachel and Zerchi; the mission to the other planets -- the "new heaven and new earth").

Frankly, I think it is one of the best, most moving, and most challenging of religious novels I've read, because it doesn't pull its punches. It doesn't present any easy answers to the troubling questions concerning religion, but nonetheless (in artistic terms at least, if not philosophically) deals with the entire issue with great compassion and seriousness, without being devoid of the leavening of humor.

So no, I don't think the religion presented here is at all a "tragic mistake" -- at least, no more so than I think is the case with all religion in the final analysis. (But even given that view, there is much of beauty and genuine human pathos and compassion which can, and has, emerge(d) from religion.) I would argue that Miller simply paints it as honestly as possible, given the milieu of the novel... which is, after all, based very much on the history of religious movements (good and bad) in our own world.

I was referring to the "Wandering Jew." Outside of this discussion I've never heard of this mythology and therefore assumed it must have it's origins in the Jewish mythology.

I remember continuing to slog through the book being frustrated that the whole thing was a send up of the roots of religion which sometimes led people to do the right thing, but only out of their own resources in the service of grocery list. I felt that the book was one of the most subtle and damaging shots anyone had ever taken at people of faith. "People of faith might occasionally do heroic and even sacrificial things, but there core beliefs are just a muddle of stupidity."

I would have had no problem with the lack of tangible action by God, this is almost always the way he works, but when there was no hope of God's work in the world, I couldn't buy the book as book that treated religion seriously.
 
The grocery list -- just as the schematic plan -- were considered sacred relics (or at least potentially sacred) of a blessed man, one who was being considered for canonization; and the grocery list itself was especially so, since it was (iirc) the only existing example of this soon-to-be-saint's handwriting (much as, until her decanonization, any relic of Jean d'Arc would also have been seen). But it didn't form scripture; simply a saintly relic. It has been a while, but as I recall, there were distinct biblical references and certainly allusions; the Church here is simply the Catholic Church, having been one of the very few institutions which survived the nuclear holocaust, and which is slowly going back through the cycle, repeating the developments (or analogous developments) it went through from its early establishment to the present.

As for Benjamin (or Ahaseurus, or Joseph, or... depending on the variant one is dealing with), here's a brief look at this historic and influential legend:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wandering_Jew

I would strongly suggest reading Baring-Gould's chapter on the figure, especially as he was also a man of faith (yes, this is the same man who wrote the Christian hymn, "Onward, Christian Soldiers"). The entire book (which is quite a fascinating read) can be found at the Internet Archive:

http://www.archive.org/details/curiousmythsofmi00bariuoft

Baring-Gould was a very well-noted student of folklore, and his writings on such things are both entertaining and informative, and give a lot of insight into the beliefs of the times when these beliefs evolved.
 
Parson said:
I remember continuing to slog through the book being frustrated that the whole thing was a send up of the roots of religion which sometimes led people to do the right thing, but only out of their own resources in the service of grocery list. I felt that the book was one of the most subtle and damaging shots anyone had ever taken at people of faith. "People of faith might occasionally do heroic and even sacrificial things, but there core beliefs are just a muddle of stupidity."
Indeed, to build upon what J.D. said, the veracity and authenticity of many of the documents they had salvaged and preserved at the abbey were established by Thon Taddeo in the second part of the book when he visited the abbey and had a chance to apply the "rigours" of the scientific method to them. And by the end of that section the reader was left with the impression that it was actually the monks who were better able to extrapolate facts from history than the secular scientsts after Thon Taddeo appeared all too ready to jump to conclusions in accepting an interpretation that suggested they were not actually the true descendents of pre-holocaust civilization.
 
My own view on C for L is that it discusses faith in general as well as Medieval Catholicism, and the two can be seen pretty much separately. The whole business of the illuminated manuscript in the first third seems to relate to religion at one particular time, and of one branch.

The other thing is that the church in C for L is vital to humanity. Even with all the errors and mindless repetition (ie the ignorance of the middle ages), it is clearly the best thing that mankind has until Thon Taddeo in the second part - and Thon Taddeo works for a ruthless king (Leonardo under the Borgias vs the Pope!).

I don't see this book as an assault on the church. Although Miller pokes fun at the superstition of the early church, he recognises the importance of such a permanent institution in people's lives and in the recovery of mankind. It is clear that the power of the church as a nation in itself is eclipsed later on in the novel, but the sensitive way in which Miller presents the religious arguments, especially in Fiat Voluntas Tua, suggest to me that he is at least giving religion a fair degree of respect - unlike many SF authors, who seem to regard it as something mankind has to grow out of.
 
The grocery list -- just as the schematic plan -- were considered sacred relics (or at least potentially sacred) of a blessed man, one who was being considered for canonization; and the grocery list itself was especially so, since it was (iirc) the only existing example of this soon-to-be-saint's handwriting (much as, until her decanonization, any relic of Jean d'Arc would also have been seen). But it didn't form scripture; simply a saintly relic. It has been a while, but as I recall, there were distinct biblical references and certainly allusions; the Church here is simply the Catholic Church, having been one of the very few institutions which survived the nuclear holocaust, and which is slowly going back through the cycle, repeating the developments (or analogous developments) it went through from its early establishment to the present.

As for Benjamin (or Ahaseurus, or Joseph, or... depending on the variant one is dealing with), here's a brief look at this historic and influential legend:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wandering_Jew

I would strongly suggest reading Baring-Gould's chapter on the figure, especially as he was also a man of faith (yes, this is the same man who wrote the Christian hymn, "Onward, Christian Soldiers"). The entire book (which is quite a fascinating read) can be found at the Internet Archive:

http://www.archive.org/details/curiousmythsofmi00bariuoft

Baring-Gould was a very well-noted student of folklore, and his writings on such things are both entertaining and informative, and give a lot of insight into the beliefs of the times when these beliefs evolved.

Let me first apologize for the egregious spelling and grammatical errors in last night's post. I was dead tired and headed for bed. I'm afraid that shows in my using the wrong homonym and completely forgetting words.

The wandering Jew is a fascinating myth. It seems to be straight out of the folklore of ancient Christianity and a reminder of what people can dream up and take for sacred truth. This dreaming up truth has not stopped in our own day. As an example I would point to the "Health and Wealth" preachers of our own day.

Toby Frost is right that Miller does give religion a fair hearing. In that the people of faith are seen as often devout and practicing a fair amount of the best ideas of the human race. It is a definite point in his favor that Miller does not see religion as something which is dying or must be defeated for the progress of the human race.

However, in my final accounting, I would say, that although the book is a true SF classic and cannot be forgotten once read, it has to be viewed at best as a left handed compliment to religion in general and Christianity in particular. The people are genuine, but the faith is farcical.
 
However, in my final accounting, I would say, that although the book is a true SF classic and cannot be forgotten once read, it has to be viewed at best as a left handed compliment to religion in general and Christianity in particular. The people are genuine, but the faith is farcical.
Are they not proper Catholics? What is it that they do or believe that makes their faith farcical?
 
I would hope that a proper Catholic would speak clearly, at least rarely, about the hope they had in Jesus. I would hope that that they would speak clearly, at least rarely, about the biblical witness (if all the Bibles were destroyed in the nuclear holocaust, which if people survived seems unlikely in the extreme, there surely would have been some oral tradition.).

But at some level I have to admit that I come from the low church and fundamentalist roots. And so I probably don't have quite the understanding of how a "proper" Catholic would act. My Catholic friends would fit my above expectation.
 
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