Before They are Hanged - Joe Abercrombie

[Bup]

Or like... actually, I can't say. That would ruin it.


The Blade Itself.

As for series, he hasn't written one yet. His latest novel is Best Served Cold, which is a stand-alone (though set in the same world as The First Law). I've just finished reading it, and it's very good. Then again, I loved the trilogy, so I can't say whether or not you'd like it.

Corrections, Best Served with Unnecessary Emphasis

Anyway, in this thread I think I'm the Devil's advocate. Actually enjoying the conclusion to his series feels a bit like cheering for Mussolini but I'm also aware that I can enjoy books many others can't seem to (I don't think Linden Avery is Linden Whinery), although mostly it's indeed the other way around. Like, how can anyone actually enjoy the ending of Memory, Sorrow & Thorn, *mumblemumblegrumble*..

Edit. And it does seem like a bit of a shame because The Blade Itself is easily one of the ten best books I've read.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Anyway, in this thread I think I'm the Devil's advocate.

<--

*ahem*

 

[soulsinging]

Anyway, in this thread I think I'm the Devil's advocate. Actually enjoying the conclusion to his series feels a bit like cheering for Mussolini but I'm also aware that I can enjoy books many others can't seem to (I don't think Linden Avery is Linden Whinery), although mostly it's indeed the other way around. Like, how can anyone actually enjoy the ending of Memory, Sorrow & Thorn, *mumblemumblegrumble*..

Funny you mention Tad Williams... I was struggling in book two and had heard rumors of a letdown ending, so I caved and checked some spoilers. I'm glad I did. I'd have been furious to slog through all four massive books in that series for that awful ending!

That said, I'm one of the few in the world that seems to absolutely love the ending of the First Law trilogy. *SPOILERISH* It was bleak, and didn't necessarily wrap everything up tidy, but that's what appealed about it. I'm kind of a hardened cynic myself, so maybe that is the reason. Anyone that follows politics as closely as I do has to admit that it's pretty accurate in the way it shows the true futility of trying to overcome the established order. In the end, they always win out and First Law beautifully balanced some change in the characters with driving home the theme of the series: that individuals are really generally powerless to affect the course of history.

 

[Toby Frost]

I enjoyed the series and felt that the ending of the third book worked fine in terms of structure. The overall story does close, at least in terms of having a satisfactory conclusion for each character. It feels properly "rounded-off". However in contrast to Soulsinging I found the bleakness of the ending rather unsatisfactory: it felt like a slightly adolescent "Life just sucks, ok?!" after a very grown-up treatment of the story and characters up till then.

Before They Are Hanged contained some of, to my mind, the best and worst (perhaps slightly-less-very-good is more accurate) elements of the trilogy and was probably my favourite of the three. That said, they are all really good.

I should add that I didn't get to this thread by searching for my own name on the previous page, honest.

 

[Ursa major]

That said, I'm one of the few in the world that seems to absolutely love the ending of the First Law trilogy.

I'm another reader who did really liked the ending of the trilogy.

There were some aspects of Before They Are Hanged - some of the geography and some characters' reaction to it (I won't say more as it could provide spoilers) - where I had a vague feeling the world was built to meet the needs of the story rather than being simply a neutral environment. I'm not saying the feelings pulled me out of the story too much, and I'm more than willing to believe my impressions in this area are mistaken. However, the very real-world ending (nowithstanding all the magical elements), a good deal less than fairytale-like, blew away my earlier doubts.

(In a way, The First Law is a bit like Miéville's Bas Lag books: some good things happen, but there's a general feeling that a lot of the bad stuff will continue as usual.)

 

[Bup]

However in contrast to Soulsinging I found the bleakness of the ending rather unsatisfactory: it felt like a slightly adolescent "Life just sucks, ok?!" after a very grown-up treatment of the story and characters up till then.

I started taking note of the numerous sayings to that effect throughout the third book, but am not aware if it would be against the forum rules to quote.
That's just it though, I mean I've never been blamed for being too naive but the ending felt lopsided. Spoilerish --->
The degree to which the characters were undeserving was precisely inversely proportional to how much satisfaction they got. <--

Funny you mention Tad Williams... I was struggling in book two and had heard rumors of a letdown ending, so I caved and checked some spoilers. I'm glad I did. I'd have been furious to slog through all four massive books in that series for that awful ending!

Yes, and thanks for that, for all I've hitherto read is how people felt the ending was 'accurate', 'fulfilling', 'fair', 'good', 'happy', like they'd read some different set of books altogether.

 

[soulsinging]

I enjoyed the series and felt that the ending of the third book worked fine in terms of structure. The overall story does close, at least in terms of having a satisfactory conclusion for each character. It feels properly "rounded-off". However in contrast to Soulsinging I found the bleakness of the ending rather unsatisfactory: it felt like a slightly adolescent "Life just sucks, ok?!" after a very grown-up treatment of the story and characters up till then.

I don't see it so much as an adolescent "life sucks" message as a very mature "life is what happens while you're busy making other plans" sort of thing. Not everyone ends up miserable, some people come out ok... it's more about shattering the delusion we all have that we are the masters of our own destinies, when truly we're more like pinballs bouncing around this world hoping to get lucky.

 

[Ursa major]

"life is what happens while you're busy making other plans" sort of thing.

And the consequences are those for which the folk who know how to play the game wish.

(In this respect, The First Rule reminds me of certain aspects of GRRM's A Song of Ice and Fire: many play the game, but only a very few really know what they're doing.)

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I agree. I thought the ending was actually very appropriate, even if it was, as soulsinging said, a little "bleak". Yes, there were some things left a little open (like Ferro's fate, for instance, although I was amused that she was indirectly mentioned in passing in Best Served Cold) but that, to me, is appealing. Real life doesn't neatly wrap up all our 'stories' into a nice and tidy 'conclusion', so that struck me as realistic. Otherwise, it might seem like the characters only existed to serve the plot.

*MAJOR SPOILERS!*
I like how Logen, in spite of his intentions to be a better man and insisting that a man can change, ultimately remained the same man he was at the start. Still viewed as a cold-hearted b*****d, still ruthless; he even managed to alienate the Dogman, arguably his only real friend. And the Bloody-Nine kills Thunderhead! Dang, I didn't see that coming. Black Dow turning on him wasn't really a surprise, though.

I like how Bayaz played everyone. The apparently stereotypical 'wise, old, powerful guide' reveals himself to be the biggest megalomaniac mastermind of them all. One question, though: Did Bayaz really kill Juvens and... what's her name? Kanedias's daughter? Because right till the end, he kept claiming (although with arrogance rather than contrition) that he was "not guilty". What do you guys think happened?

I like how Jezal seemed to be turning into a better person in Book 2, but then in Last Arguments of Kings eventually reverts to the snivelling, selfish, superficial, clueless coward that is his true self.

Best of all, I liked Glokta's fate. It's refreshing to see the tortured anti-hero not redeem himself, and in fact embrace the opportunity to become the most powerful and feared man in the Union. The fearful/hated/"Oh my God, is he standing behind me?" way Eider and others refer to 'the Cripple' in Best Served Cold made me smile. Go Glokta!
*END OF SPOILERS (AND POST...)*

 

[Toby Frost]

I'm not going to argue this one because a) it rather gives the impression I would only have been happy with a simplistic happily-ever-after ending, b) it would seem to suggest that I have major problems with the trilogy, which I certainly don't and c) I don't know how to hide spoilers. I also suspect that beyond a certain point it comes down to personal taste.

Oddly I enjoyed the ending to Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, and it struck me as pretty upbeat!

 

[biodroid]

I can't remember if have asked this before but here goes anyway, is The First Law trilogy similar-ish to ASOIAF? I would like to get into GRRM but didn't really stick with it, more to do with me than the book I think. Loving BTAH so far and it's building up nicely.

 

[Bup]

I don't see it so much as an adolescent "life sucks" message as a very mature "life is what happens while you're busy making other plans" sort of thing. Not everyone ends up miserable, some people come out ok... .

"Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans" to me means a rather neutral "life happens all the time, most of it unplanned". It doesn't have any connection with "we have no control over our own destiny", nor does it imply something grim. For grim I do see the ending of this series as. It says : "Yes, indeed, the world is super dung.". Who comes out ok? If it's part of the real world, it's the bleakest part of it. Like a war in Africa. Why would you let a war in Africa confirm your view of the world?

Ruckley's "The Godless World" has a sort of bleak ending too, but it doesn't go over the top- it still seems rather realistic. Donaldsons' Chronicles are bleak as well, but they neither are Africa.

spoiler ->

Spoiler

And the thing about Jezaal's wife was rather tasteless, though it went hand in hand with Glokta's unsympathetic character.

And Memory, Sorrow & Thorn? Upbeat?
spoiler ->

Spoiler

The thing that really needed undoing never happened, something that really needed avenging never was, and the greater race was, stereotypically, allowed to fade

 

[Toby Frost]

How do you do that with the spoilers, by the way?

 

[Ursa major]

Like:

Spoiler

this

;
or
this.

In the first method, you place the text between spolier marks: [ spoiler] and [ /spoiler] (but without the spaces within the square brackets).

In the second, you change the colour of the font (in this case to the third one from the left at the bottom).

Personally, I use the latter method.

 

[soulsinging]

"Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans" to me means a rather neutral "life happens all the time, most of it unplanned". It doesn't have any connection with "we have no control over our own destiny", nor does it imply something grim. For grim I do see the ending of this series as. It says : "Yes, indeed, the world is super dung.". Who comes out ok? If it's part of the real world, it's the bleakest part of it. Like a war in Africa. Why would you let a war in Africa confirm your view of the world?

To me, they're directly connected. People are busy making their plans, but life happens without any regard to those plans. We can try all we like to control our destiny, but life doesn't give a damn for those plans and will carry us where it wishes. We think "I can work hard and save and then retire comfortable, but one spot of cancer in our family and those dreams are dashed. Or one hurricane or oil spoil as a result of corporate greed. That's how I always understood the lyric... stop trying to control everything around you and just enjoy the ride and see where it takes you.

As to who comes out ok (big spoilertime)

Spoiler

Glotka, for starters. Gets promoted and gets the grudging respect and fear he deserves, rather than pity. He's working for a master he knows isn't a fool to boot. I find Glotka plenty sympathetic. His master comes out ok as well... Bayaz didn't win the war, but he struck a pretty big blow. Is he a good guy? Not really. Is his enemy any better with his cannibalism and slavery? Hardly. Their country seems more stable, rallying behind a "heroic" king (even if we know better). Logen is likely still alive and still surviving and being realistic. The northmen have deposed Bethod and stand in better shape than they were under him. Ferro's life continues on much as it was. Her and Logen may not have improved their lot, but they're not really worse off either. It's really only West and Jezal that are truly broken people at the end. It's not Africa. Maybe it's not Scandinavia either, but it's far from misery everywhere. It's just that us readers have spent most of our time up close with the people that were broken or that were morally ruthless in their struggle to survive being pawns in other people's games.

I really hope nobody reads that that hasn't finished the books, hehe.

 

[soulsinging]

I can't remember if have asked this before but here goes anyway, is The First Law trilogy similar-ish to ASOIAF? I would like to get into GRRM but didn't really stick with it, more to do with me than the book I think. Loving BTAH so far and it's building up nicely.

They have some similarities, but I don't think they're all that similar. First Law has more action, is told on a bit smaller scale, and has a lot more dark humor. ASOIAF is very epic. It took me until halfway into the second book to finally get into ASOIAF because it doesn't quite have the same pace and has far more characters to pay attention to. There's a scope and heft to it that isn't in the First Law.

 

[Bup]

To me, they're directly connected. People are busy making their plans, but life happens without any regard to those plans.

Since we aren't in synch regarding the conclusion, this sentence can have two meanings. If we think like I do regarding the end, then the above sentence is 'misery will get you, just you wait' which might be true, but it shouldn't be one's guiding words.
If we think like you regarding the end, i.e mixed fortunes, then the above sentence comes closer to how I think of 'Life is what happens when you make other plans', though your way of phrasing appars to imply that we're on a boat on a lake we just discovered was a violent ocean and the boat is a log and your oar is a male platypus, i.e not necessarily grim, but with no measure of control whatsoever. If you agree that this is how we disagree, then I trust we can agree to disagree.

Spoiler

Glokta is a bully, a personality type I can only stand in a literary character if it is tempered with a certain charm or some other saving grace. Glokta has bits of dark humor, but those are few and diluted.
Bayaz is the archetype of megalomaniac, not afraid to walk over any corpse (we know he killed the Maker and his daughter, and it is my interpretation that he killed Juvens as well). Yeah, it goes rather well for him, see my formula above. Ferro becomes a thing of the ..underworld, or whatnow it was called that the Seed was made of, which I think changes a person rather thoroughly. Love for her was rather hopeless from the start, I guess it is entirely so now. Logen has no more friends in the North, so I'd say he is worse off, but then he pretty much deserved to die horribly. As for the people in the North, didn't Bethod put and end to infighting or do I remember that wrong? And aren't lots of those sub-human constructs of the Maker still around up there?

"No man can change"
"No one gets what they deserve"
"Nothing changes for the better"
"Power makes all things right" - these things sound like strifey parts of Africa.

As previously mentioned, I suspect another part of why the ending seems so inky is because the first book is so hilarious and so very different.

 

[soulsinging]

If we think like you regarding the end, i.e mixed fortunes, then the above sentence comes closer to how I think of 'Life is what happens when you make other plans', though your way of phrasing appars to imply that we're on a boat on a lake we just discovered was a violent ocean and the boat is a log and your oar is a male platypus, i.e not necessarily grim, but with no measure of control whatsoever. If you agree that this is how we disagree, then I trust we can agree to disagree.

(Spoiler)

Spoiler

Glokta is a bully, a personality type I can only stand in a literary character if it is tempered with a certain charm or some other saving grace. Glokta has bits of dark humor, but those are few and diluted.
Bayaz is the archetype of megalomaniac, not afraid to walk over any corpse (we know he killed the Maker and his daughter, and it is my interpretation that he killed Juvens as well). Yeah, it goes rather well for him, see my formula above. Ferro becomes a thing of the ..underworld, or whatnow it was called that the Seed was made of, which I think changes a person rather thoroughly. Love for her was rather hopeless from the start, I guess it is entirely so now. Logen has no more friends in the North, so I'd say he is worse off, but then he pretty much deserved to die horribly. As for the people in the North, didn't Bethod put and end to infighting or do I remember that wrong? And aren't lots of those sub-human constructs of the Maker still around up there?

"No man can change"
"No one gets what they deserve"
"Nothing changes for the better"
"Power makes all things right" - these things sound like strifey parts of Africa.

I think I agree that that's how we disagree, so we'll have to agree to disagree. Because that's basically exactly how I interpret it to be.

I suppose it is all a matter of perspective as you say. I think I've got a bit more love for the not so nice protagonist. I loved Glotka and you don't seem to think too highly of him, same for Logen. I detested Jezal, so maybe that's why our views on the endings are different. I felt some people did get what they deserved, others didn't, some things changed for the better, and others didn't. I'm still not seeing the Africa comparison, if you ask me it's as comparable to the USA as it is to Africa. Some people benefit beyond what they deserve, others are ground under the boot of an indifferent society by those seeking personal gain... pretty western capitalist to me!

 

[Connavar]

The problem with epic,heroic fantasy is the likeable hero are in every book it seems. Why cant there be more Gloktas....

Logen i almost rolled my eyes against first time i saw him. The heroic barbarian. But Glokta i thought hm what is this guy about. Thats important in adventure fantasy.

 

[Toby Frost]

I've just noticed something kind-of-similar about Memory, Sorrow and Thorn and The First Law that I don't feel works very smoothly in either. Also I've worked out how to do spoilers. Here goes:

In MST, Simon's rise to kingship feels forced in order to give him a happy ending. In TFL, West's decay (and it seems pretty inevitable death) feels forced in order to give him an unhappy ending. Both feel somewhat crowbarred in to keep with the feel of the rest of the books. In Simon's case, he is in line to go back to being a comparatively low-ranking person (albeit a knight rather than a peasant) and lose the girl: in West's, he is in line to become a war hero and live happily ever after. Now, I realise that MST isn't mindlessly cheery, but it is in a non-cynical setting where heroics generally work out and luck tends to favour the bold and honest, with a couple of exceptions. It would seem weirdly sour for it all to fail like that. Similarly, West has become a much better person and has worked hard and honestly to succeed. By the internal logic it would seem inappropriate for things to turn out ok for him. Both feel quite arbitrary.

That said, MST and TFL are some of the best fantasy I've read for years, if not decades.