Getting annoyed at longwinded series

[Werthead]

What it comes down to is that readers need to do more research. Unless it specifically says that the series is a trilogy, I never assume it is, and if I'm interested in trying the series I'll look it up to see if it is completed, and if not will likely not try it.

So I think readers need to do more research themselves in some cases. Tom Lloyd has said The Twilight Reignwill be five books from the off and that's been reiterated in publicity materials. In fairness it doesn't say anywhere on The Stormcaller's cover that it's a five-book series, but it also doesn't say it's just a trilogy either. If someone just assumes that without checking further, then to some degree that's their own mistake.

There are some series where the publisher doesn't actually say it's a series or what volume the book is anywhere on the cover. British publishers are becoming more guilty of this, as neither The Steel Remains (the first book in the Land Fit for Heroes Trilogy) nor The Adamantine Palace and King of the Crags (the first two books in the Memory of Flames Trilogy) have the series title or volume number anywhere on the cover or spine at all.

 

[Lord Soth]

Not being an author myself (except in my head like most others here) I can imagine that unless you spend an awful lot of time mapping out the full structure of a series before you write it that it must be terribly difficult to say 'its going to be XX books long'.

From the odd interview i have seen some authors really do make it up as they go along, having only the most general idea of how the book will progress. If an author tries to hit a certain number of books, you may find that he starts padding them out with rubbish to fill the pages, or even worse (maybe) begins to chop out bits he wanted to put in due to size restraints.

Anyway, i can see some culprits of the 'buy first book' crime in this thread! Stay away from my local store!!!

 

[Fried Egg]

Not being an author myself (except in my head like most others here) I can imagine that unless you spend an awful lot of time mapping out the full structure of a series before you write it that it must be terribly difficult to say 'its going to be XX books long'.

From the odd interview i have seen some authors really do make it up as they go along, having only the most general idea of how the book will progress.

That's precisely what annoys me about long series. They just make it up as they go along, the same way they write soap operas. Work out what you're going to do in advance, decide how long you really need to tell the story you want to tell, and write it.

If an author tries to hit a certain number of books, you may find that he starts padding them out with rubbish to fill the pages, or even worse (maybe) begins to chop out bits he wanted to put in due to size restraints.

That's exactly my point. Work out how long your story really needs to be from the outset rather than planning to make it fit a specific number of books or merely to make it as long as possible.

 

[Werthead]

That's precisely what annoys me about long series. They just make it up as they go along, the same way they write soap operas. Work out what you're going to do in advance, decide how long you really need to tell the story you want to tell, and write it.

Very few people sit down and write a story or series with no idea how it will unfold at all. Martin and Jordan both knew the outline of their stories before Book 1 was published, it's just that they felt that intervening events and storylines needed embellishment in order to strengthen the whole. Jordan was probably wrong about that, whilst we need to see more of ASoIaF to see if some of the apparent divergences from the storyline were really necessary.

In addition, soap operas are a poor comparison. The storylines of most soap operas are planned 1-2 years in advance in quite a lot of detail beforehand. The difference is that soap operas do not have an over-arcing megaplot and are designed from the off to go on indefinitely. Most of the book series discussed do have end-points and do have over-arcing storylines linking the start and end together.

That's exactly my point. Work out how long your story really needs to be from the outset rather than planning to make it fit a specific number of books or merely to make it as long as possible.

This is often pretty much impossible, even for professional writers with decades of experience. Tolkien, Jordan and Martin were all significantly wrong about how long their masterworks were going to be (The Lord of the Rings was made up as Tolkien went along as well). Erikson has also gone down this route, with his core series remaining at ten books but now several additional series being announced to flesh out side-stories that he began but did not have time to expand on in the core series.

The interesting point is that it is generally these less well-planned works which dominate discussion in the field. Shorter series which were planned and executed efficiently tend not to be as highly-regarded as these series and in many cases have vanished into obscurity. Greg Keyes' Kingdoms of Thorn and Bone showed a different problem where the requirements of this mechanical pre-plotting approach meant that the last book felt very forced and unconvincing, damaging the series as a whole. The organic-writing approach (what the Suvudu blog calls 'freewriting') generally lends itself better to more interesting characters and situations, even if it also sometimes leads to much longer series.

 

[elvet]

What it comes down to is that readers need to do more research. Unless it specifically says that the series is a trilogy, I never assume it is, and if I'm interested in trying the series I'll look it up to see if it is completed, and if not will likely not try it.

Fantastic Fiction is my best friend.
There are a few epics that I know I'll want to start, and then reread when the new one comes out (eg. Malazan, House Wars), but I generally stick to the standalone books or completed series. I'm lucky to have a plethora of books in my to-be-read pile, so I can afford to wait a series out. I buy the current ones and just add them to the pile. One thing I do worry about is the availability of the earlier books (eg. Wars of Light and Shadow before the reprints , which is why I buy them when they are released.

 

[Vertigo]

Hi, I'm a newbie here (very first post) and was intrigued by this thread.

If the series has good characters/plots/concepts that make me want to read more then I love them. However I do sympathise big time with some of the grouches appearing here. I have pretty much given up using my local library through frustration - they have loads of series books but almost invariably seem to be missing the first one or two books aaaarrrgh!

Also I have to agree with Chel, there is nothing more frustrating getting into a series and then realising as you get closer to what you thought was going to be the end that there is no way averything is going to be wrapped in time. Then a quick serach on the web reveals that there is one or more books still to come and Lord know when they will be complete.

All that said if it is a good series with engaging characters, engrossing plot and intriguing/novel concepts then I just love them. I want it to keep going and when I come to the end of a really good one it is almost a disappointment - I want more! Sad but there you go.

You also have to balance the nature of the series - are the books stand alone or interdependant? Richard K. Morgan's Takeshi Kovacs books for example each stand on their own and you are not left hanging. Whereas some series seem to delight in leaving you on a knife edge at the end of each volume. That drives me wild - fine, have a series of books but each volume should be a moderately self contained episode within the larger storyline. Don't leave us hanging and then tell us it will be another year or two before the next instalment. I kind of felt that way at the end of Peter Hamiton's Temporal Void (what on Earth is going to happen to Justine!). At least it's not too much more of a wait new for the next one.

Well there you go I've dipped my feet in the water - be nice to a newbie

 

[elvet]

Welcome to the Chrons!

 

[Vertigo]

Thank you!

 

[Clansman]

Fantastic Fiction is my best friend.
There are a few epics that I know I'll want to start, and then reread when the new one comes out (eg. Malazan, House Wars), but I generally stick to the standalone books or completed series. I'm lucky to have a plethora of books in my to-be-read pile, so I can afford to wait a series out. I buy the current ones and just add them to the pile. One thing I do worry about is the availability of the earlier books (eg. Wars of Light and Shadow before the reprints , which is why I buy them when they are released.

One thing we all must remember, is that if we don't buy books in a series as they are being released, the author does not get paid. If it is an excellent series with poor sales, then they go out of print. If you want to read a series in one go, buy the books as they are released, otherwise, you have to track down out-of-print second hand books. We as educated readers have to realize that in order to keep reading good books, the authors have to earn enough cash to live on to keep writing new good books. Very, very few make the kind of coin that a George R.R. Martin or a Robert Jordan does. It still chokes me when I realize how much money a hack like Terry Goodkind makes, but enough people like his books for him to be quite wealthy (plus a TV show. gah.). Most of our good fantasy writers make a modest, hopefully comfortable, living.

On another note, one does have to be careful about cover blurbs. J.V. Jones' Sword of Shadows series was touted by the first publisher as a trilogy, but she always intended it as a five-book series (a quintology?). I got caught by Warner's blurb on the first book, thinking that the third book was about to be released. Now waiting for the fourth and fifth to be out in MMP.

 

[The Procrastinator]

What it comes down to is that readers need to do more research. Unless it specifically says that the series is a trilogy, I never assume it is, and if I'm interested in trying the series I'll look it up to see if it is completed, and if not will likely not try it.

Yes yes yes, and readers like me need a brain transplant so we can remember all the research we've done that refuses to come to mind when trolling the aisles in t'bookshop, or even worse, t'second hand bookshop. You're quite right when it comes to trilogies, it pays to be careful, but what of those who refuse to admit they're part of a series at all? Tricky little creatures!

We can't trust cover blurbs, we can't trust reviews, we can't trust anything to do with books - and here we are, taken in again.

This thread exists because we are all SUCKERS and its making us mad!

 

[Chel]

Yes yes yes, and readers like me need a brain transplant so we can remember all the research we've done that refuses to come to mind when trolling the aisles in t'bookshop, or even worse, t'second hand bookshop. You're quite right when it comes to trilogies, it pays to be careful, but what of those who refuse to admit they're part of a series at all? Tricky little creatures!

We can't trust cover blurbs, we can't trust reviews, we can't trust anything to do with books - and here we are, taken in again.

This thread exists because we are all SUCKERS and its making us mad!

Exactly!
...and also because some authors really should learn to write shorter/fewer books and not fill them with unnecessary fluff.

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

I actually don't mind long-winded series so much. What bugs me is when authors pull a stunt like Terry Brooks did with his Shannara books and place each volume so far ahead in time from the last it was like an entirely new story. That doesn't happen all that often, though Piers Anthony has done that with his everflowing Xanth series-but who can blame him on that point? (Although I must point out that Xanth has gotten beyond the point of ridiculous all the way to tiresome-what world needs over 30 volumes?) I would say the one series that has frustrated me to the utmost to where I will never again attempt is the Wheel of Time. Two pages into that and I feel like either chucking the book or using it as a doorstop.


If a story is good and flows smoothly enough, let it be a dozen volumes if it wishes. It's those that flow at a frozen snail's pace that have me tearing my hair out and groaning.

 

[soulsinging]

WoT is a series that clearly lost the plot for a good portion of it's series. I remember reading somewhere (can't remember where) that Jordan had initially planned it to be a shorter series (maybe 5 or 6), but then revised the predicted length, and the then revised again, until finally saying it would be twelve books. Of course, we now know that it will finally end at #14.

Another example is A Song of Ice and Fire. Though I haven't read the series, and hear only good things about it, it was originally planned as a trilogy, and was then decided that it would consist of seven novels. Perhaps this revised length is one of the reasons GRRM hasn't finished the fifth book in several years.

This is why I'm leery of getting sucked too into GRRM. I've read the 4 books thus far, but I'm not so sure I'll read the next until it's done. It reminded me so much of Jordan... I loved the first 3 WoT books and honestly felt like he'd intended for it to end there, but I could tell almost instantly in book 4 that he'd lost control with all kinds of brand new and previously unmentioned characters and nations cropping up left and right. I made it through the 6th and gave up and am glad I did! I felt the same way about book 4 of Martin's series... like his creation had escaped his control and he felt compelled to pursue plots and characters that seemingly have no relation to the story arc. It's a shame because those first 3 were some of the best books I ever read, but I'm going to let it happen to me again!

Thus why I loved Abercrombie's series... it was a great example of wrapping up main plots in a timely fashion without getting distracted, but still leaving the door open for many other adventures should he decide to take up some of those threads one day.

 

[JagLover]

I prefer fantasy series to standalone books in the genre because I think a well created fantasy world should be visited more than once.

I however hate the sprawling series that start so well, but then grind to a halt in a mess of new characters and appalingly slow plot development.

Once in the fantasy genre series of 3-5 books were the norm. Perhaps revisting the world at a later date with new characters. If you cannot resolve the plot in 5 books there is something going wrong.

 

[chrispenycate]

I actually prefer individual books to series; or at least series where you can read any book, more or less work out what's going on, with an ending which ties up that book, if not all the hanging threads.

This is because I'm never sure of getting the volumes in the right order, or indeed all of them.

Which doesn't mean I don't like a good, big, detailed story (although I'm probably never get any further in the wheel of time, and I've read exactly one of the Goodkind saga) but the 'unseries' (things like the afformentioned Xant collection, or Pratchett's discworld in famtasy, or the Vorkosigan saga or Weber's Honor Harrington books in SF – hm, that makes it look as if SF is much more serious than fantasy, I'll add either the Stainless steel rat or Bill, the galactic hero to balance things out a bit – where you can read any book and get a complete story, even if you don't get to know all the characters as well as you might hold a considerable attraction for one who is either nomadic, or rarely within range of a good bookstore.

But what really annoys me is not the planned series, but the drag on sequels (McCaffrie's Pern books, as an example, although I suppose those are dragon sequels) Repeated returns to a universe under fan pressure. Lackey's Valdemar books, Darkover, Anthony's second split infinity trilogy…

 

[Moggle]

Warning: This may become a bit of a rant!

Imagine going to the bookstore, eager to pick up something new to read. Imagine buying a trilogy by an author new to you, rushing home and making yourself comfortable, digging into the new world, making new friends of the characters and in general just enjoying yourself.

Sounds good so far?

Well, what if, by the time you get halfway through the third book, you start realising that the story is far from told, and that there's no way the author will be able to finish it within the remaining 200-300 pages? And all this time, throughout the 2½ books you've already read, the author's been wasting your time on trivialities that add nothing to the plot, filling the pages with needless fluff?

If I come across as being annoyed at this, you're right, I am. I'm the kind of person who is reluctant to leave a book unfinished. If I've started reading something, it takes a lot for me to put the book away before I reach the end - that is, if it's not bad enough to make me put it away before it starts properly. That doesn't mean I read a lot and all the time though, I actually only read in bed before going to sleep, and usually fall asleep with the book still open in my hand.

The main gripe I have with these neverending books is that, apart from a few masters at the art such as G.R.R Martin, there is no need for them to go on and on and on. Where Martin's books make me wish they would never end, many others keep me reading out of pure pig-headedness - I do, after all, want to know how the story ends.

Maybe it's just that I should be more careful and remember to check the last page of each book - will there be a continuation, should I wait with starting the book until I have that last, still unwritten part in my hands? Should I start doing more research before even going to the bookshop, to make sure I don't by mistake pick something up that looks like a trilogy but will continue for the next twenty years?

Undoubtedly there's a big market for these enormous series, and some of them are, admittedly, very good. Personally though, I steer away from them (if I notice it in time!) because so many are filled with endless descriptions and pointless scenes. I just want to know how the story ends! By the time the next book comes out, chances are I've forgotten all about the first three books, possibly I've even forgotten I ever read them - and if I remember having read them, and I now face re-reading something I know I didn't think was all that good to start with, I might as well not buy the fourth, fifth or tenth book in the series at all.


It did become quite the rant, but I think I'm done for the moment.

Most book series are trilogies nowadays. Perhaps longer series were all the rage 15-20 years ago, but they're not common enough these days to even warrant complaining about it. Also, how can you criticize neverending book series and then make George Martin an exception when not only is he doing the same thing, but he's taken it to a new level writing sequels every 5 years? He is no more a "master" of the "neverending book series" than any other author who writes them and then gets lost in his own story.

 

[Chel]

Most book series are trilogies nowadays. Perhaps longer series were all the rage 15-20 years ago, but they're not common enough these days to even warrant complaining about it. Also, how can you criticize neverending book series and then make George Martin an exception when not only is he doing the same thing, but he's taken it to a new level writing sequels every 5 years? He is no more a "master" of the "neverending book series" than any other author who writes them and then gets lost in his own story.

I can criticize it and make GRRM an exception because he doesn't waste words on endless descriptions that seem to be there only to fill enough pages to warrant the next book. That was the main point in my rant, I'm sorry if I didn't get it across well enough.

I don't mind very long series as much if they are well-written enough and have enough actual content to need many books, but I do mind authors who fill their books with fluff just to get the page count up. And I also mind books where it's not clear from the start how many books are in the series. All of this adds up and annoys me.

 

[ratsy]

Of course I would prefer to read complete series but i rarely works out that way. It reminds me of televsion series' . If you watch a show throughout the year, you have to wait until the following season to see what happens. It is much the same thing. But once you have watched the shows finale and are on to the next thing, you occuppy your mind with something else. When that next season starts, you get back into it with no damage done.

Same deal with books for me. There is always something to read and as soon as I open that new book the previous one closes in my mind until i need to think of it. If that makes any sense....

 

[Rackon]

I truly don't really care whether a work is a standalone, a trilogy or a series of many volumes. All I demand is that the book(s) be good.

What I care about is the quality of writing and the storytelling. There's more than a few series out there that peter out after book 3 -4 - 5 or whatever. I hate padding, and I sometimes wonder where the hell the publisher's editor was prior to release. There are complex tales that need length, and probably a lot mroe that don't.

It takes an excellent writer to sustain quality in a long series. Just too many not up to snuff IMO.

 

[jojajihisc]

I may have taken it too far. I started off with the long series (Malazan etc.), migrated to shorter series (Helliconia et. al.) moved to giant stand alone novels (eg. Simmons' The Terror), then typical length novels (i.e. The Shrinking Man by Matheson), a few months ago onto short novels/novellas (The Metamorphosis) and now I enjoy really long short stories. I expect I'll be on to book blurbs by summer's end.

Truthfully I still enjoy most of those except the first. Standalone stories of any length though are my favorite.