What are you implying? Robb?
Talk about two birds with one stone - necrophilia and bestiality.
Shae
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What are you implying? Robb?
Talk about two birds with one stone - necrophilia and bestiality.
Boaz
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Shae is deceased. In Cersei's first chapter in AFFC, she sees Shae's body in Tywin's bed. The body has been there for some time before Cersei first observes it and then it's carried out by the Kettleblacks. If Shae was still living, I believe Jaime, Pycelle, the Kingsguard, the Kettleblacks or some Lannister guards would have noticed.
Marei=Rhaenys? Hmmmmm. Marei is about the right age and she has silver hair.
Marei=Rhaenys? Hmmmmm. Marei is about the right age and she has silver hair.
Thanks, Boaz.
I thought there must have been a further reference to it somewhere, otherwise we'd have had threads about Shae's "current" location. (We haven't, have we? And I'm guessing no-one has suggested that Shae was Syrio....)
Has been a while since I read ASOS...
Was Tywin actually likeable? I loved the total b*****d that he was, because he fit into the story so perfectly (I still think that they should have cast Charles Dance as Tywin in the series). But likeable? Not the kind of guy with whom I'd want to have a pint.
Boaz
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In ACOK today, I read the second time that Tyrion pretends to be with Alayaya at Chataya's. He asked her what she does while he's with Shae and she tells him that Marei is teaching her to read. So Marei is an educated girl.... with silver hair.
Culhwch
Lost Boy
So who did the Mountain kill then if it wasn't Rhaenys? I can see baby Aegon being swapped out, but where are you going to find a silver-haired toddler at such short notice?
Culhwch
Lost Boy
Life is in the details, Boaz.
Young stormlord
Thousand eyes and one!
You don't need silver-haired toddler... you only need toddler stabbed twenty times, wrapped in Lannister crimson cloak. Besides, if Marei (Pretty thing but too solemn by half) is Rhaenys, she wouldn't be the first lady hiding in house of pleasure (Remember poor little Jayne Pool, Sansa's friend that is forced to pretend to be Arya?).
And guess what? Tywin Lannister never lost control over himself. Robert hated Targaryens and Lannisters aligned with him too late. Tywin needed something pretty gruesome to assure Robert he is loyal. What if it is the same story as with Jaime? Jaime killed Aerys, true king, but that king would have burned the whole city if he didn't do so.
What if Tywin played the game of thrones very well? If Robert Baratheon did not marry Cersei, what would Tywin do then? It makes sense to keep a couple very young Targaryens as back up plan, just in case Robert turns against Casterly Rock. If he saved little princess, he would have had a chance to (you guessed it
) take over the world, either by giving her to Jaime or by marrying her himself. And Chataya said another Hand visited her house quite often... And who was the longest serving Hand before Jon Aeryn? Tywin Lannister, of course. Varys, Targ loyalist, wouldn't say anything about it to anyone, since the girl is safe and living in luxury, maybe a little worn out, but alive and safe. And there's also the question of golden-haired Tyrek Lannister, former Robert's squire, Tywin's "nephew", that conveniently disappeared in the middle of rebellion. See here.
wow, this post turned out longer than I intended...
viZion
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Maybe the baby didn't have hair yet. Or maybe they just found a newborn without hair. Somehow I don't think Gregor would notice a detail like that or care. Or maybe they just dyed the hair of the fake baby.
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IlliferThePenniless
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I think (and I'm sure Wert will correct me if I'm wrong) GRRM has confirmed that Rhaenys is dead. Isn't that one of the things what makes everyone think that Aegon is still out there, that when asked about the two children Gregor killed, he'd only confirm that Rhaenys died?
Culhwch
Lost Boy
Actually, I think you may be right, Illifer.
EDIT: Indeed, from Martin himself:
From http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1106/
EDIT: Indeed, from Martin himself:
From http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1106/
Last edited:
Boaz
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As usual, I don't have a properly wrtitten theory... just some thoughts.
I've been reading ASOS and thinking of the poisonings recently. As I read the part of Shae's and Tywin's deaths, I wondered about her relationship with both Tywin and Tyrion... and you know me, I started thinking about parallels and connections. What if Shae is one of Robert's bastards? Lannisters treating Robert's child poorly... yet only Jaime and Cersei actually detested Robert. Just another example of Robert not protecting a child for whom he was responsible. Mayhaps Tywin wanted to act out upon the kin of a king after he suspected that Aerys defiled his wife. And this may be fun for a minute, but does not really lead me anywhere.
So I thought back to my main theory of Shae. She worked for Varys as a little bird. Now a woman, she continues to work for him in a different capacity. Bronn claimed he took her from an insignificant knight of a minor lord... no names. When asked directly, Shae told Tyrion the knight was a man of no account... a small man.... and this led to the giant of Lannister. Later Shae said she ran away when her father made sexual advances... and even later she said her father made her his kitchen scullion. There may not be any proof, but Shae is sure short on details. In KL, Varys lets Tyrion know that he does not approve of Shae.
I've always thought Shae and Bronn worked as little birds and then grew up and free-lanced as informers when they could. Bronn got in with Tyrion. Bronn may or may not know that Shae is also Varys' spy. Shae followed the Lannisters and caught Tywin's eye. When Tyrion showed up at the inn and told Tywin that Bronn had already switched sides twice and that they'd probably get along really well, the next thing you know Bronn shows up with Shae (the prettiest girl in the camp) and no information on how he got her... and Shae seduced Tyrion. Knowing Tyrion's penchant for pretty whores and his passive agressive attitude towards authority, Tywin forbade Tyrion from taking Shae to court. Because Tywin did not trust Varys and Littlefinger, Tywin bought Bronn and Shae and had them indpendently (mayhaps conspiratorially) spy on Tyrion.
Shae and Bronn both worked for Varys, Tywin and Tyrion... with neither Tyrion nor Tywin suspecting anything. Remember when Bronn suggested assassinating Joffrey and replacing him with Tommen? Do you think he just said that in fron of Tyrion and Varys or did Varys or even Tywin tell him to say it and see how Tyrion reacted? Shae tried multiple times to get Tyrion to let he go to Joffrey's wedding feast... in particular, she wanted to see the jousting dwarves and the pie even though she was supposed to be fond of singers and there were to be seven of them.
I really don't doubt Shae's connection to Tywin and Varys, but who is she and where did she come from? And the following lines from Tywin set me thinking along these lines. "You seem to have no problem bedding whores. Is the Stark girl made differently?" This was said in ASOS when Tywin was lecturing Tyrion on the need to consumate his marriage to Sansa. We know (and it's my belief that Tywin knows) that "whores" is directly contrasted with "the Stark girl", but Tywin can't let Tyrion know that he knows Shae's name. We are supposed to believe that Tywin is comparing the benefits of breeding stock... low born scum versus a high born lady. But is Martin hinting at something? Is Shae low born or could she be high born? I've already stated that I don't like her as Robert's daughter... mayhaps someone else's b*****d.
In the OP, I suggested Shae may actually be Sarella Sand. If she is, then she's already in a position to administer Oberyn's poison to Tywin. Mayhaps she was supposed to be at Joffrey's wedding to poison Tyrion's pie. The Martells have been playing the long game. But I don't have any other hints or proofs at this time.
The other thought I have is that Shae is the daughter of Brandon Stark. We know Brandon was hyper-sexualized. He had every woman he wanted. He probably left a b*****d or two. We know he traveled to King's Landing and to Riverrun. The men arrested with him by Aerys included northmen, valemen, and rivermen. He made friends everywhere.
Brandon, Bran for short, went to King's Landing and was strangled. If Shae is his daughter, then she also went to KL and was strangled. Bran's actions brought Shae into the world and Bronn's actions brought her to the game of thrones. This thinking changes Tywin's line to "You seem to have no problem bedding Brandon's daughter? Is Eddard's daughter made differently?" Shae and Sansa are cousins.
Or another way to think upon Tywin's line....
Tywin is consumed by the phrase "wherever whores go" in ADWD. I don't know where they go, but where do they come from? They could come from anywhere Lynesse Hightower and a few Targaryens in Fire and Blood, but I think for the most part, in the Seven Kingdoms, they come from the commoners with bastards and children of whores being especially susceptible to the sex trade.
"You seem to have no problem bedding whores and bastards. Is the Stark girl made differently?" Is this supposed to mean Sansa is illegitimate?
We know that Martin likes to compare parents with children. Robb promised to marry a Frey girl and then rode to war and married Jeyne Westerling. We know that Eddard married Catelyn and then rode to war. Harwin told Arya that Eddard slept with Ashara Dayne while Brandon was still engaged to Catelyn. On Sansa's wedding night, Tyrion told her he'd been married previously.......
All that to say Robb chose Jeyne's honor over his own. Did Eddard do the same? Did he marry the first girl he climbed into the sack with? I'm not saying that's Ashara. The whole Dayne family has been impenetrable to me, but mayhaps not to Eddard. Anyway, could Eddard have been married before Catelyn? Did he have a child and have the marriage annulled?
Is Tywin saying, "You seem to have no problem bedding bastards. Sansa's no different." Is he saying that Shae is either Sansa's cousin..... or sister?
I know I'm reaching. No conclusions, just comments.
I've been reading ASOS and thinking of the poisonings recently. As I read the part of Shae's and Tywin's deaths, I wondered about her relationship with both Tywin and Tyrion... and you know me, I started thinking about parallels and connections. What if Shae is one of Robert's bastards? Lannisters treating Robert's child poorly... yet only Jaime and Cersei actually detested Robert. Just another example of Robert not protecting a child for whom he was responsible. Mayhaps Tywin wanted to act out upon the kin of a king after he suspected that Aerys defiled his wife. And this may be fun for a minute, but does not really lead me anywhere.
So I thought back to my main theory of Shae. She worked for Varys as a little bird. Now a woman, she continues to work for him in a different capacity. Bronn claimed he took her from an insignificant knight of a minor lord... no names. When asked directly, Shae told Tyrion the knight was a man of no account... a small man.... and this led to the giant of Lannister. Later Shae said she ran away when her father made sexual advances... and even later she said her father made her his kitchen scullion. There may not be any proof, but Shae is sure short on details. In KL, Varys lets Tyrion know that he does not approve of Shae.
I've always thought Shae and Bronn worked as little birds and then grew up and free-lanced as informers when they could. Bronn got in with Tyrion. Bronn may or may not know that Shae is also Varys' spy. Shae followed the Lannisters and caught Tywin's eye. When Tyrion showed up at the inn and told Tywin that Bronn had already switched sides twice and that they'd probably get along really well, the next thing you know Bronn shows up with Shae (the prettiest girl in the camp) and no information on how he got her... and Shae seduced Tyrion. Knowing Tyrion's penchant for pretty whores and his passive agressive attitude towards authority, Tywin forbade Tyrion from taking Shae to court. Because Tywin did not trust Varys and Littlefinger, Tywin bought Bronn and Shae and had them indpendently (mayhaps conspiratorially) spy on Tyrion.
Shae and Bronn both worked for Varys, Tywin and Tyrion... with neither Tyrion nor Tywin suspecting anything. Remember when Bronn suggested assassinating Joffrey and replacing him with Tommen? Do you think he just said that in fron of Tyrion and Varys or did Varys or even Tywin tell him to say it and see how Tyrion reacted? Shae tried multiple times to get Tyrion to let he go to Joffrey's wedding feast... in particular, she wanted to see the jousting dwarves and the pie even though she was supposed to be fond of singers and there were to be seven of them.
I really don't doubt Shae's connection to Tywin and Varys, but who is she and where did she come from? And the following lines from Tywin set me thinking along these lines. "You seem to have no problem bedding whores. Is the Stark girl made differently?" This was said in ASOS when Tywin was lecturing Tyrion on the need to consumate his marriage to Sansa. We know (and it's my belief that Tywin knows) that "whores" is directly contrasted with "the Stark girl", but Tywin can't let Tyrion know that he knows Shae's name. We are supposed to believe that Tywin is comparing the benefits of breeding stock... low born scum versus a high born lady. But is Martin hinting at something? Is Shae low born or could she be high born? I've already stated that I don't like her as Robert's daughter... mayhaps someone else's b*****d.
In the OP, I suggested Shae may actually be Sarella Sand. If she is, then she's already in a position to administer Oberyn's poison to Tywin. Mayhaps she was supposed to be at Joffrey's wedding to poison Tyrion's pie. The Martells have been playing the long game. But I don't have any other hints or proofs at this time.
The other thought I have is that Shae is the daughter of Brandon Stark. We know Brandon was hyper-sexualized. He had every woman he wanted. He probably left a b*****d or two. We know he traveled to King's Landing and to Riverrun. The men arrested with him by Aerys included northmen, valemen, and rivermen. He made friends everywhere.
Brandon, Bran for short, went to King's Landing and was strangled. If Shae is his daughter, then she also went to KL and was strangled. Bran's actions brought Shae into the world and Bronn's actions brought her to the game of thrones. This thinking changes Tywin's line to "You seem to have no problem bedding Brandon's daughter? Is Eddard's daughter made differently?" Shae and Sansa are cousins.
Or another way to think upon Tywin's line....
Tywin is consumed by the phrase "wherever whores go" in ADWD. I don't know where they go, but where do they come from? They could come from anywhere Lynesse Hightower and a few Targaryens in Fire and Blood, but I think for the most part, in the Seven Kingdoms, they come from the commoners with bastards and children of whores being especially susceptible to the sex trade.
"You seem to have no problem bedding whores and bastards. Is the Stark girl made differently?" Is this supposed to mean Sansa is illegitimate?
We know that Martin likes to compare parents with children. Robb promised to marry a Frey girl and then rode to war and married Jeyne Westerling. We know that Eddard married Catelyn and then rode to war. Harwin told Arya that Eddard slept with Ashara Dayne while Brandon was still engaged to Catelyn. On Sansa's wedding night, Tyrion told her he'd been married previously.......
All that to say Robb chose Jeyne's honor over his own. Did Eddard do the same? Did he marry the first girl he climbed into the sack with? I'm not saying that's Ashara. The whole Dayne family has been impenetrable to me, but mayhaps not to Eddard. Anyway, could Eddard have been married before Catelyn? Did he have a child and have the marriage annulled?
Is Tywin saying, "You seem to have no problem bedding bastards. Sansa's no different." Is he saying that Shae is either Sansa's cousin..... or sister?
I know I'm reaching. No conclusions, just comments.
Boaz
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Sarella. Alleras. Alleras is just Sarella spelled backwards. Does it not seem too obvious.? After hiding characters like Coldhands, Arstan Whitebeard, and Young Griff... and after taking great pains to show how others lose themselves in a maze of names (Arya is Arry, Weasel, Squab, a ghost, a mouse, No One, Nan, Lumpyhead, Squirrel, Salty, Blind Beth, Cat,... Sansa is Alayne... Theon is Reek... Jeyne Poole is Arya Stark... Gendry is the Bull)... and after showing us how some people use faces, glamors, or other techniques can change their identities (Jaqen is Pate, Arya is the ugly girl, Rattleshirt is Mance, Mance is Rattleshirt, Varys is Rugen)... do you think GRRM would make Sarella spell her name backwards to disguise herself?
Kiwi, I admit that my argument is based on 1) what I think GRRM would not so and 2) what I'd like to see happen. I don't have a real connection between Shae and Sarella.... yet.
Oberyn trained his daughters for specific purposes; Obara is a warrior, Nymeria is a ninja, Tyene is a poisoner, and I think Sarella is a seductress. Obara's weapons are strength and the spear. Nym uses speed and knives. Tyene is all subtlety and poisons. Sarella embodies sex.
I want to summarize my current belief regarding Shae. I used to think she grew up as one of Varys' little birds, but not now. I think she's on a long term undercover mission to spy on the Lannisters for Oberyn's revenge. I used to think she and Bronn were hired by Tywin at the Inn at the Crossroads and both used by Tywin to spy on Tyrion. I now think she and a male accomplice joined Tywin's army as a sellsword and whore with the purpose of spying. Since Bronn never benefitted with more than a knighthood after the Blackwater, I don't think he was working for Tywin. I think Shae and her accomplice played Bronn into letting Bronn take Shae from the accomplice. No complaint was made, nor revenge sought upon Tyrion. Shae seduced Tyrion and found herself in KL near the Iron Throne. If Shae was a whore, why didn't she take Tyrion's money and flee KL when Stannis was coming? If Shae was just a whore, why did she accept the demotion and loss of dresses and jewelry to be Lollys' and Sansa's maid? It seems to me that from the moment of Tyrion's arrest for regicide until his escape, no more than a week passed... certainly not a fortnight. Yet in that time, Shae found her way into Tywin's bed... just in time for him to be poisoned. She was not interested in money (always a whore's motivation), but in being close to the seat of power.
Kiwi, I admit that my argument is based on 1) what I think GRRM would not so and 2) what I'd like to see happen. I don't have a real connection between Shae and Sarella.... yet.
Oberyn trained his daughters for specific purposes; Obara is a warrior, Nymeria is a ninja, Tyene is a poisoner, and I think Sarella is a seductress. Obara's weapons are strength and the spear. Nym uses speed and knives. Tyene is all subtlety and poisons. Sarella embodies sex.
I want to summarize my current belief regarding Shae. I used to think she grew up as one of Varys' little birds, but not now. I think she's on a long term undercover mission to spy on the Lannisters for Oberyn's revenge. I used to think she and Bronn were hired by Tywin at the Inn at the Crossroads and both used by Tywin to spy on Tyrion. I now think she and a male accomplice joined Tywin's army as a sellsword and whore with the purpose of spying. Since Bronn never benefitted with more than a knighthood after the Blackwater, I don't think he was working for Tywin. I think Shae and her accomplice played Bronn into letting Bronn take Shae from the accomplice. No complaint was made, nor revenge sought upon Tyrion. Shae seduced Tyrion and found herself in KL near the Iron Throne. If Shae was a whore, why didn't she take Tyrion's money and flee KL when Stannis was coming? If Shae was just a whore, why did she accept the demotion and loss of dresses and jewelry to be Lollys' and Sansa's maid? It seems to me that from the moment of Tyrion's arrest for regicide until his escape, no more than a week passed... certainly not a fortnight. Yet in that time, Shae found her way into Tywin's bed... just in time for him to be poisoned. She was not interested in money (always a whore's motivation), but in being close to the seat of power.
Boaz
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A couple of thoughts…
Rethinking the matter of Shae’s demise, I find her to be defenseless. I find it impossible to believe that a daughter of Overince would be defenseless. Therefore, she is not Sarella.
In the OP, 13 years ago, I threw out the thought that Shae could be Robert’s daughter.
I get it. I do. And yet, Martin writes about so many secret romantic liaisons, bestards, switched at birth scenarios, and presumed deceased children that we have to keep those in mind while we’re reading. And yet we can’t go, jumping after every shadow.
She could be exactly who she appears to be. A girl who was dealt nothing in life, and yet is working herself into a socio-economic position due to her employment by Tyrion, Tywin, Cersei, probably Varys and Bronn, and others.
But could she be one of Roberts children? Maggie, the frog told Circe that she would have three children and that the king would have sixteen. Of these we know of Mya Stone, Gendry Waters, Edric Storm, Bella Rivers, the babe in Kings Landing, the twins at Casterly Rock… What about the other nine?
In Tyrion’s second chapter of ACOK, he dines with Janos Slynt, and then has a conversation with Varys. They talk of Robert’s bestards, especially the baby in Kings Landing. The mother is a prostitute and Tyrion remembers Shae and Tysha. He then thinks long and hard about Shae. The reader is supposed to move along from bestards to prostitutes, but what if Martin is not leaving the idea of Robert’s bestards? What if he is implying that Shae is Roberts daughter?
I guess this is my last thought… Can anyone persuade me that she is Roberts daughter?
Mayhaps Shae is just Shae. She moved from bed to bed and from employer to employer in order to make a better life. After Tyrion killed Shae and Tywin, Varys asked Tyrion, “You knew what she was?”
I guess the upshot of all of this is that she compares to Tysha. It makes Tyrion’s guilt that much worse.
Rethinking the matter of Shae’s demise, I find her to be defenseless. I find it impossible to believe that a daughter of Overince would be defenseless. Therefore, she is not Sarella.
In the OP, 13 years ago, I threw out the thought that Shae could be Robert’s daughter.
I get it. I do. And yet, Martin writes about so many secret romantic liaisons, bestards, switched at birth scenarios, and presumed deceased children that we have to keep those in mind while we’re reading. And yet we can’t go, jumping after every shadow.
She could be exactly who she appears to be. A girl who was dealt nothing in life, and yet is working herself into a socio-economic position due to her employment by Tyrion, Tywin, Cersei, probably Varys and Bronn, and others.
But could she be one of Roberts children? Maggie, the frog told Circe that she would have three children and that the king would have sixteen. Of these we know of Mya Stone, Gendry Waters, Edric Storm, Bella Rivers, the babe in Kings Landing, the twins at Casterly Rock… What about the other nine?
In Tyrion’s second chapter of ACOK, he dines with Janos Slynt, and then has a conversation with Varys. They talk of Robert’s bestards, especially the baby in Kings Landing. The mother is a prostitute and Tyrion remembers Shae and Tysha. He then thinks long and hard about Shae. The reader is supposed to move along from bestards to prostitutes, but what if Martin is not leaving the idea of Robert’s bestards? What if he is implying that Shae is Roberts daughter?
I guess this is my last thought… Can anyone persuade me that she is Roberts daughter?
Mayhaps Shae is just Shae. She moved from bed to bed and from employer to employer in order to make a better life. After Tyrion killed Shae and Tywin, Varys asked Tyrion, “You knew what she was?”
I guess the upshot of all of this is that she compares to Tysha. It makes Tyrion’s guilt that much worse.