Steampunk Fantasy. First two scenes rewritten.

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As you rightly say, people make assumptions, because if only one or two clues are given they have no other choice. At this stage we don't see a casserole. All we see is the empty frozen pea packet and we know that the last 99 times we ate peas, potatoes were there in one form or another.

If you don't want false assumptions to be made, then it is best to be very careful about the information that you do give.

In any event, all credit to you for looking at the critiques and thinking about them, even if you don't agree with what has been said
 
As you rightly say, people make assumptions, because if only one or two clues are given they have no other choice. At this stage we don't see a casserole. All we see is the empty frozen pea packet and we know that the last 99 times we ate peas, potatoes were there in one form or another.

Now that is a bloody good analogy!

It makes perfect sense.

If you don't want false assumptions to be made, then it is best to be very careful about the information that you do give.
Okay! So instead of being bemused by people making assumptions and wishing they'd stop because "you know it's only two scenes so far, and they haven't read the really cool info dumps that'll put them in the picture yet yeah?" --- I will bear that piece of advice well and truly in mind.

Otherwise, I'm fighting human nature. Expecting to win would be just ...

In any event, all credit to you for looking at the critiques and thinking about them, even if you don't agree with what has been said
I agree with some of it and I'm grateful for all of it.
 
Rufus-I feel I should clarify my rather weak comments-I know nothing about steampunk. I am glad that you have taken on the crits and it has fired you up creatively rather than doused the desire out anyway. I like the "thrown together" worlds, but then, I am not particularly detail orientated in regards to stuff other people spot, it tends to go over my head. Thats why getting so much feedback on here is good-nothing gets missed eventually.:D

I'd be interested to know what the Donald POV is like, and whether the starting point HB suggests (smart idea to fix the issues of tension), would be implemented in that rewrite?

Emma
 
Have you ever read Mortal Engines by Philip Reeve? That's a young adult book with some interesting retro elements. Also, China Mieville writes in a world somewhere between traditional fantasy and steampunk, although his books are quite adult.

critique you don't agree with can still inspire

Definitely. I've found this a lot, especially when someone says "Why don't you put X into the story?" Usually the answer of why I won't tells me something about what I'm writing. One of my characters gained a lot of depth from me repeatedly telling a friend "No, she's not doing that!"

Actually I think you've got a very good attitude towards critique. You've neither decided it's terrible and thrown it away or angrily justified everything. A small question: could you, if you had/wanted to, put together a full description of your world? I don't mean all the details but enough to be able to give a rough background. I suspect you probably could, but at any rate I think it's useful in this sort of story.
 
Rufus Coppertop said:
Okay! So instead of being bemused by people making assumptions and wishing they'd stop because "you know it's only two scenes so far, and they haven't read the really cool info dumps that'll put them in the picture yet yeah?" --- I will bear that piece of advice well and truly in mind.

Just remember, this is the opening to your story. While it's understood that there's alot of information and character detail and world building to come as the story progresses, the beginning it where you are "hooking" your reader and setting the stage. Often a reader develops his own mental image of your world in the early stages of a book, if you go a chapter or two in before pouring on the details, the reader may have to re-imagine what he thought your world was all about.

Details are the key. I'd suggest writing a complete physical description of this scene (separately) or thoroughly imagine it in your head, then place your character in it, through in the details. Convince your reader that this is where we are.

That said... don't overdo it! :D
 
I think your peas and mashed potatoes argument doesn't entirely hold. Some things do go together because they arise out of the same world view and social structure, not simply because people are used to seeing them together. For instance the bustle dresses -- they don't have to go with top hats and mutton-chop whiskers, but they say something about the aesthetics and customs and morals of the people that wouldn't go well with togas or tee-shirts. As you add such elements to your story, you have to think about all the implications, what other necessary baggage you are bringing in with them, things that are much, much more than common associations, but which have to do with the structures of a society that would bring them into being. If you put your women in corsets, hoop skirts, and layers of concealing clothing, you should ask yourself, "Why are they wearing all of that?" The "why" of women who must go out in public in uncomfortable clothing that reshapes and conceals their bodies is not likely to go with sexual freedom, or much spontaneity or freedom of expression generally. On the other hand, subtly alter those garments in ways that accentuate or exaggerate a woman's shape, then you are saying something slightly different about your society (or at least the place that the particular women wearing those garments hold in that society).

So when you combine things from different times, places, and cultures, think about the dynamics behind them. Is it even plausible that they would go together? Perhaps you are trying to indicate a huge social clash and a shift in values. Or it may be that you are combining things that, even though they do happen to come from different eras, are actually complimentary. It shouldn't be just an "Oh, I think that would be neat, let's have some of those" approach, but something deliberate and carefully thought out.
 
I'd be interested to know what the Donald POV is like, and whether the starting point HB suggests (smart idea to fix the issues of tension), would be implemented in that rewrite?
Emma

Hopefully there are aspects of this that work and I'm not just making the same mistakes with a slightly different packaging.


CHAPTER I​
Where Donald shoots his mouth off and has to live up to his word.

With a clank and a hiss, the trolley car took off down Pompey Boulevarde, its single steam piston chugging. Donald looked from the black enamelled boiler at the front, bell shaped and visible through the driver’s window, to the passengers who had just climbed on.


Among them was Tiberius, a dark haired thirteen year old in Donald’s class. Noticing Donald, he nodded and said, “Hello, Skyhigh!”


“Morning, Tiberius!” Donald said with a nod. Tiberius came over, hands held out ready to clutch a seat back if the trolley car rocked too hard.


He sat down next to Donald, looked him up and down and grinned. “Living up to your nickname, I see.”


Donald rolled his eyes. “Well it’s no worse than the way you dress,” he said, glancing at Tiberius’s pleated trousers belted low around the hips and tucked into a pair of boots.


“Yeah, but no one’s gonna bully me because of the way I dress.”


Donald shrugged. “So I should dress down? To please morons?”



Tiberius shrugged and shut his mouth. Donald looked out the window again and gazed at the statues as they rolled into the town square and stopped.



A large bronze of Vercingetorix stood on a pile of corpses, surrounded by ravens, gazing towards the south and holding Caesar the Upstart’s head on a spear.


An armoured statue of the empress, Boadicea the Fifth held an imperial banner with SPQR emblazoned on it and in her right hand, she held the head of Attila the Hun by its hair.



People were gathered around the plinth of Boadicea’s statue. It looked like there was about to be a demonstration. Statues of Boadicea the Fifth, otherwise known as ‘the Great Liberator’ were often used as a rallying point.


Donald did a double take as a young woman stood up on a soap box before it.


She had knee length boots and an elegant, knee length skirt. A brocade waistcoat accentuated her breasts and narrow waist. Her hair, in natural ringlets of gold shifted in the breeze as she held up a placard.


Repeal the Lex Virlupinus!



“What are they on about?” said Tiberius as the trolleycar took off again.


“Maybe they think it’s discriminatory,” said Donald, glancing at Tiberius and turning in his seat to look at the woman. They passed out of view.



“I didn’t know there was a special set of laws about werewolves,” said Tiberius.


“No one bothers with it,” said Donald. “Maybe it’s just the principle that annoys them.”


“Do you reckon she has golden fur when she changes?”


“Of course,” said Donald. “My uncle on mum’s side had red hair and when he changed, his fur was always red ... well, reddish anyway.”


“You know Odo and Gaius are leaving?”


“Why?”


“Apprenticeships,” said Tiberius.


“Who’d have those halfwits?” Donald said.


“Carpenters’ guild.”



“Right,” said Donald. “I bet their old man pulled some strings.”


“Probably,” said Tiberius. “Apparently they’re gonna give you a goodbye beating.”


“Ha!” said Donald. “They’re always going to ... never get around to it though.”


“Nah,” said Tiberius. “Not while their old man’s a teacher, anyway.”


Donald nodded and looked out the window. Rocking its way past the alchemists’ guild house, a hardware shop and the temple of Ares, the trolley car slowed and pulled to a halt.


Tiberius looked at the door, jumped up from his seat and moved away.


Donald clicked his tongue and looked at the door. A couple of older boys from their school were getting on. One of them noticed Donald and nudged his companion.



“Look at that!” he said with a sneer.



They sat across from Donald and started commenting as the trolleycar took off.



They were trying to make him feel self conscious and they were succeeding, but he wasn’t going to let them know.



“Hey Sky! I’m talking to you,” said one of them after a minute or so.


Donald looked over at the red haired boy whose name was Cinna. “Yes, Cinna?”


“Do your mummy and daddy make you dress like that?” Cinna said with his lip curled. “Like a little golden prince?”


The curled lip reminded Donald of a mongrel dog. He shook his head.


“What? You mean you actually like dressing like that?”


It was tempting to lie. Mum and Dad force me to dress like this but deep down, I’m really a casual sort of guy! And I don’t do homework either! And I don’t like books!

He glanced down at himself. His shirt was crisply ironed and had a collar. His pinstriped shorts were close fitting with a long fly and an ultra high waist. They came up well above his navel. His suspenders and short tie matched.



He looked at Cinna whose lip was still curled. Cinna’s pale face was the colour of a cheap toilet bowl and the orangey freckles spattered all over it, looked like the aftermath of a bad curry.


“Yeah! I bloody well do! I like dressing like this! What’s it to you?”


“What did you say?” Cinna replied, curling his lip even more. “Eh? What was that?”


“You heard!” Donald said with a glare. “And what’s with the lip?”


“You two boys should be ashamed of yourselves,” said an elderly man from several seats away. “Why don’t you leave him alone?”


That shut them up.


Donald glanced at Tiberius, several seats away. Suddenly, he was unable to make eye contact. Donald let out his breath and looked out the window. The stone shop fronts had given way to stone fences and houses set further back and this part of Pompey Boulevard was lined with oaks.



Donald and the other boys all got to their feet as the trolleycar started to slow. A couple of minutes later, they were walking towards the stone gate of their school and the trolleycar disappeared around a bend where Pompey Boulevard turned to follow a river.


A sandy haired twelve year old, practically Donald’s twin, stood waiting for him with a girl in their class named Rufina.


“Nathan! Rufina!” said Donald, breaking into a smile.


“Hi, Donald!” they both said.


“Pansy!” said a voice by his ear. A shove on his shoulder made him stumble. Cinna walked past with his friend, looked back and sniggered as Donald managed to regain his balance.


Rufina glared at them and looked them up and down with contempt as Cinna swaggered past.



“Bastards!” she said.


“Drop on your head!” Cinna replied and cackled at his wit.



“Nice start to the day,” Nathan said as Donald joined them.


“Yeah, tell me about it!” said Donald shaking his head. “I’ve been copping it all the way ...”


“Donald!” said Rufina, stepping forward and putting on her best severe look. “You and Nathan should take the day off!”


“Yeah, right!” said Donald. “And miss the excursion? Not a hope!”


“Odo and Gaius are going to beat you up today,” said Nathan.


“I swear by Apollo,” said Donald. “I’m not going to hide from those cretins and I’m not missing one minute of school because of them, either.”


“Bloody hell, mate!” said Nathan. “You’ve blown it.”



Donald clicked his tongue. “Blown what? What do you mean?”



“You shouldn’t go back on an oath like that,” said Rufina.


“What makes you think I’m going to?” said Donald, unbuttoning one of the sleeves on his fawn shirt and rolling it up. “I’m not a coward, you know. Besides, didn’t their old man nearly lose his job because of them?”


“That’s just it,” said Nathan. “Today’s his last day.”


“Theirs too,” said Rufina. “They’re off to do apprenticeships. They want to give you something to remember them by.”


Donald raised an eyebrow and stared at Nathan and Rufina. “Uh oh!”


“Yeah!” said Nathan. “And you’ve just sworn ...”


“All right, mate! I see the picture.” said Donald, looking a bit pale. He unbuttoned his other sleeve and rolled it up as well. Checking the sleeves to make sure they looked neat and sat evenly, just above his elbows, he sighed. “Wish I’d kept my mouth shut for half a minute!”


“Donald, you didn’t know...”


“And you can break a vow when it’s life or death,” said Rufina. “Everyone knows that!”


“It’s not life or death,” said Donald. “So, I’m keeping the vow.”


“Right then,” said Donald, “that’s today sorted. Are we going in?”


“All right,” said Nathan.


“You should change ...” said Rufina and stopped as Donald stepped past into the school quadrangle. “Your mind,” she said and exchanged a resigned look with Nathan.


They followed him into the school building, a three level structure of grey stone with arched doors and gabled windows.


“So where are we gathering?” Nathan asked Rufina.


“Classroom!” said Rufina. “It’s just the second and third years that are going. Don’t you ever listen?”

* * *​
 
I think your peas and mashed potatoes argument doesn't entirely hold.

True, but the Judge's reply to it was dynamite!

As you add such elements to your story, you have to think about all the implications, what other necessary baggage you are bringing in with them, things that are much, much more than common associations, but which have to do with the structures of a society that would bring them into being. If you put your women in corsets, hoop skirts, and layers of concealing clothing, you should ask yourself, "Why are they wearing all of that?" The "why" of women who must go out in public in uncomfortable clothing that reshapes and conceals their bodies is not likely to go with sexual freedom, or much spontaneity or freedom of expression generally. On the other hand, subtly alter those garments in ways that accentuate or exaggerate a woman's shape, then you are saying something slightly different about your society (or at least the place that the particular women wearing those garments hold in that society).
That's an entire layer of history I simply had not considered.

So when you combine things from different times, places, and cultures, think about the dynamics behind them. Is it even plausible that they would go together? Perhaps you are trying to indicate a huge social clash and a shift in values. Or it may be that you are combining things that, even though they do happen to come from different eras, are actually complimentary. It shouldn't be just an "Oh, I think that would be neat, let's have some of those" approach, but something deliberate and carefully thought out.

There's an element of everything you've mentioned here with I want to do, including the gratuitous "this would be neat" thing. Well, maybe not so much the huge social clash.

I want to be a world which in some ways is quite modern, at least as far as women's lib goes. So there should be a definable class system with snobbery both from the top down and the bottom up. I also want the possibility of social mobility.

I will throw in the odd whacky detail here and there, such as hardware shop chains called, Ashurbanipal & Jackson or whatever, but I think you've made a wonderful point about restrictive female fashions NOT being compatible with female liberation.
 
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Have you ever read Mortal Engines by Philip Reeve? That's a young adult book with some interesting retro elements. Also, China Mieville writes in a world somewhere between traditional fantasy and steampunk, although his books are quite adult.

Thanks, I'll chase those up on amazon.

Actually I think you've got a very good attitude towards critique. You've neither decided it's terrible and thrown it away or angrily justified everything. A small question: could you, if you had/wanted to, put together a full description of your world? I don't mean all the details but enough to be able to give a rough background. I suspect you probably could, but at any rate I think it's useful in this sort of story.

I have copious notes on paper and on computer and a lot of it held in my head. Maybe it's time to put them in order and pin it all down.
 
The word "homosexual" sticks out like a sore thumb. Kids wouldn't use that word in talking to each other. Make up a slang word and let the reader figure out what it means.
 
I think your revised beginning works a lot better than the first, to a point. That point, for me, was when Tiberius says "Do you know Odo and Gaius are leaving?" Up till then, you've got some decent unobtrusive worldbulding, and a couple of interesting things you don't explain at once.

One is his nickname, Skyhigh. At least, I assume that's his nickname rather than his surname, and that he's earned it from his preference for high-waisted trousers. But you leave us to work that out, which is good. The second is the meaning of "Rex Virlupinus", which you don't spell out.

One major point about the opening few paras, though. The narration feels more from the POV of a removed narrator rather than Donald himself.

Examples:

Donald looked from the black enamelled boiler at the front, bell shaped and visible through the driver’s window, to the passengers who had just climbed on.

Among them was Tiberius, a dark haired thirteen year old in Donald’s class. Noticing Donald, he nodded and said, “Hello, Skyhigh!”

If Donald has been on a trolley-car many times before, why is he "noticing" that the boiler is black and enamelled, bell-shaped, etc? And why does he think of Tiberius as being thirteen, rather than just "his own age"? (Unless Tiberius is a different age to Donald, in which case it's fine.) The choice of a more removed narrator is quite a common one in YA, I think, and it's perfectly valid, but you need to be aware that's what you're doing, and the advantages and disadvantages of it. The same goes for the explanations of the statues.

Where you started to lose me, as I said, is when Tiberius switches the conversation. I don't think it's wise to suddenly switch the topic of conversation in fiction without some indication as to why, but in any case, I think it just went on too long after this, without enough "meat". it's a hard fact of a writer's life that although everything his characters do and say might be fascinating to their creator, it isn't necessarily so to the reader. Kids we've never met before throwing insults around isn't going to keep our attention unless those insults are so witty that they're worth reading for their own sake. I still think you need to get the tension in before this, and one way to do it is to bring forward the info about the twins' father leaving. Such as:

“You know Odo and Gaius are leaving to take up apprenticeships with the Carpenters’ guild?” said Tiberius. “Apparently they’re gonna give you a goodbye beating.”


“Ha!” said Donald. “They’re always going to ... never get around to it though. Not when their old man's a teacher.”


“That's the point,” said Tiberius. “It's their old man's last day at school too.”

(This also has the advantage of compressing the dialogue significantly, which I think you need to do. It needs to have the appearance of realism, without actually being realistic.)

I guess you could object to my revision on the grounds that Tiberius would have brought this up sooner. Also, it means Donald can't make his vow in ignorance of the fact that the twins pose an actual threat. But maybe he's so fed up with them that he makes it anyway, rashly or stupidly, or bravely. I'd have more respect for him if he did this rather than make it because he thought he was safe. Anyway, however you choose to play it, I think you've made a better opening but you still need to kick-off the drama more quickly. Once you have established a dramatic situation, then you can start to feed in dribbles of personal background etc, because by then you'll have got the reader interested.
 
Good points Harebrain,

I see what you mean about everything including the enamel on the boiler and I knew I wasn't being strictly 3rd Limited with it. I'll leave it for the moment because, that's one of the features of these trolleycars that are worth seeing.

Okay so with your suggestions in mind ....

CHAPTER I

Where Donald shoots his mouth off and has to live up to his word.




With a clank and a hiss, the trolley car took off down Pompey Boulevarde, its single steam piston chugging. Donald looked from the black enamelled boiler at the front, bell shaped and visible through the driver’s window, to the passengers who had just climbed on.


Among them was Tiberius, a dark haired thirteen year old in Donald’s class. Noticing Donald, he nodded and said, “Morning, Skyhigh!”


“Tiberius!” Donald said with a nod. Tiberius came over, hands held out ready to clutch a seat back if the trolley car rocked too hard.


He sat down next to Donald, looked him up and down and grinned. “Living up to your nickname, I see.”


Donald rolled his eyes. “Well it’s no worse than the way you dress,” he said, glancing at Tiberius’s pleated trousers belted around the hips and tucked into a pair of boots.


“Yeah, but no one’s gonna bully me because of the way I dress.”


Donald shrugged. “Well, I’m not dressing down for the sake of morons.”


“Pity,” said Tiberius. “You make yourself a target like that. Odo and Gaius are leaving for apprenticeships today.” Tiberius shifted in his seat and looked at Donald’s clothes. “They’re gonna give you a bye bye beating for being so posh,” he said and leaned back into his seat.


“Yeah, like that’s ever going to happen while their old man’s a teacher!”


“Ha!” said Tiberius with a grin. “That’s just it old son! It’s his last day too!”


“What do you mean?”


“He’s off to the carpenters guild. You should take the day off.”


“And miss the excursion?” Donald narrowed his green eyes and stared at Tiberius with disbelief. “I’m not scared of those idiots!”


“They’re gonna get you. They reckon they’re gonna make you howl like a box of cats in an oven,” Tiberius said with a satisfied smirk. “I wouldn’t go to school today if I were you.”


Infuriated by Tiberius’s smirk, Donald looked him up and down and said, “Well you’re not me, I am! And I swear by Apollo, I’m not going to miss one minute of school because of them and I’m not going to hide from them either.”


“Oh boy!” said Tiberius, “you’ll break that vow by the end of the day!”


“No,” said Donald, “I won’t!”


Tiberius shrugged and shut his mouth. Donald looked out the window again and gazed at the statues as they rolled into the town square and stopped.


A large bronze of Vercingetorix stood on a pile of corpses, surrounded by ravens, gazing towards the south and holding Caesar the Upstart’s head on a spear.


An armoured statue of the empress, Boadicea the Fifth held an imperial banner with SPQR emblazoned on it and in her right hand, she held the head of Attila the Hun by its hair.


People were gathered around the plinth of Boadicea’s statue. It looked like there was about to be a demonstration. Statues of Boadicea the Fifth, otherwise known as ‘the Great Liberator’ were often used as a rallying point.


Donald did a double take as a young woman stood up on a soap box before it.


She had knee length boots and an elegant, knee length skirt. A brocade waistcoat accentuated her breasts and narrow waist. Her hair, in natural ringlets of gold shifted in the breeze as she held up a placard. Repeal the Lex Virlupinus!


That’s funny! Donald furrowed his brow. Don’t werewolves have the same rights as everyone else?


Tiberius started on about Donald’s posh clothes again as the trolleycar started to roll. He was obviously trying to make Donald feel self conscious.


Determined not let Tiberius know he was succeeding, Donald muttered, “Oh yeah, whatever,” and looked out the window.


So what if he wore smart looking shirts and short ties? So what if his pinstriped shorts were close fitting and ultra high? So what if they came up well above his navel? And so what if his suspenders weren’t really necessary?


They looked good, didn’t they?


How he chose to dress was his business.


Stone shop fronts with arched windows gave way to oak trees and stone fences with houses set well back. Next stop was school.


Ignoring Tiberius, Donald got to his feet and made for the door as the trolleycar began to slow. A sandy haired twelve year old, practically Donald’s twin, stood at the school gate, leaning against one of the stone pillars. A girl in their class, Rufina was waiting with him.


The trolleycar stopped and Donald stepped down and beamed at them. Tiberius brushed past him and stalked through the gateway into the school quadrangle.


“Nathan! Rufina!” said Donald.


“Hi, Donald!” they both said.


“What’s his problem?” Rufina asked, glancing over her shoulder at Tiberius.


Donald shrugged. “Who cares?”


“You know it’s old man Zimmerman’s last day?” said Nathan.


Donald nodded. “I know. Tiberius was going on about it all the way from Alaric Road.”


“You’re going to take the day off then?” said Rufina.


“Gods!” said Donald. “I’d love to, but I can’t now.”


“Why?” said Nathan.


“Well, I sort of shot my mouth off, didn’t I?” said Donald. “I swore by Apollo I wouldn’t hide from them or miss a minute of school because of them. Odo and Gaius I mean.”


“Bloody hell mate!” said Nathan.


“You’ve blown it,” said Rufina. “You can’t go back on a vow like that.”


“I don’t intend to,” said Donald, unbuttoning one of the sleeves on his fawn shirt and rolling it up. “We going in?”
 
I think the second dialogue with Nathan and Rufina works a lot better now, because it sticks to what we now know to be the plot. And the pacing is better generally.

However, I think that in bringing Tiberius's revelation forwards, you've caused yourself other problems. One is that I liked the slightly easier build-up of the previous version, with the stuff about the statues and the girl: it had enough to interest me without it seeming that you were desperately trying to grip me. Having Tiberius make his announcement so early on makes it feel rushed to me. (I hope no one told you this was going to be easy!)

More importantly, Donald shows no fear or nerves at the news that he's going to get beaten up. If he genuinely isn't scared of "those idiots", where's the tension? There might be tension if we know he ought to be scared of them, but isn't -- but that's not the case here.

However, if he is nervous without showing it (in which case you should let us know!) then the rest of the passage falls down, because he wouldn't be paying attention to the statues, he'd be dwelling on his imminent pummelling.

If you do want to change him to be nervous, even if just internally, you could get round the other issue by giving Tiberius a genuine reason to hold back his announcement about the beating until after the short conversation about the girl with the placard (BTW, I much preferred them to talk about her rather than just have Donald think about her). Also, if Donald sees that Tiberius is itching to tell him something but keeping it back for some reason, that should also make the reader curious.

Whatever you do with it, however, I'd leave it for a while and come back to it. Too many drastic rewrites of the same passage in such a short space of time can make you lose all perspective on it. I'm going to bow out now anyway and maybe others will give their comments on your revisions.
 
Three people accosted me at random today and claimed writing well was dead easy. I didn't believe them for a second!

I think I need to leave it for a while. Thanks for your input.
 
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