Inception (2010)

just to be contrary...
I think it's deliberately confusing, to keep people talking about it.
The basic premise is as ridiculous as, say, Avatar, where no explanation is required for a lotta stuff.
The minute you have 'dream inside a dream inside a dream' any old thing can happen, kinda takes any 'intellectual' edge off it pretty fast.
I sure hope this doesn't spawn a raft of imitations due to its success.
I think that without the excellent special effects and action sequences, it would fall flat in about an hour.
Watched it twice, enjoyed it- still not great enough for a sequel, let alone a string of TV knock-offs.
Or is this just a dream I'm typing in?
.
 
I'm disappointed at the end of the story...didn't know whether he still dreaming or not...but whole story was good enough...the ideas are brilliant to change people mind...
 
If there's ever been a plotline tailored for action, Inception is it. Anything can happen in a dream. I hope they go with that, and don't bother trying to explain the tech too too much.
When you stop and think how silly it really is- a group of people running around with little dream-machine suitcases, falling asleep en masse, here there and anywhere...it would put one to sleep if it wasn't for- FREIGHT TRAIN!...aieeeee*
 
Anthony G Williams:Unfortunately all of the growing body of evidence concerning the mind and the way it functions reinforces the case for this being inextricably linked to brain function: when the brain ceases to function, our life ends.

Undoubtedly so.

However, given some of the dreams sequences I have experienced (each lasting three minutes approx in real time) in which the dream appear to me, the dreamer to last forty or fifty years. Now in those last four minutes of life (heart stops to brain death) who knows what the mind could get up to.

I speculate that if during those last minutes you are revived you might get the impression/belief of the possibility of a life after death.

If you then went out and wrote a best seller, say in Greek or Hebrew; it might become the basis of something that would haunt the centuries till the end if time. :)


just to be contrary...
I think it's deliberately confusing, to keep people talking about it.
The basic premise is as ridiculous as, say, Avatar, where no explanation is required for a lotta stuff.
The minute you have 'dream inside a dream inside a dream' any old thing can happen, kinda takes any 'intellectual' edge off it pretty fast.
I sure hope this doesn't spawn a raft of imitations due to its success.
I think that without the excellent special effects and action sequences, it would fall flat in about an hour.
Watched it twice, enjoyed it- still not great enough for a sequel, let alone a string of TV knock-offs.
Or is this just a dream I'm typing in?
.


Not sure if your doubting the possibility.

I have this type of dream quite often: see above.
 
The dream world is real here, no fear, it's really real, actually really real in my mind. I don't go there anymore, thankfully.
Is it any more discomprehensible than a vampire, werewolf and ghost sharing an apartment? Or Barney? These are the stuffing of nightmares.
 
I watched Inception on DVD yesterday evening and greatly enjoyed it. I also thought the ending was the correct one, mostly because it makes us wonders what is happening. One could say, I probably would, that this is the endings purpose.

I had a look on Wiki, where it quotes Nolan as saying that what is key is that Cobb isn't watching it; I take that as meaning that the inception - the one that makes Cobb believe he's no longer dreaming - has worked. So, clearly, I'm in the "he's still dreaming" camp.

I mostly agree with Doctor Crankenstein's analysis, but would add some other (linked) events that point to the frame story being a dream:
  • First is Saito's purchase of the airline. This is so convenient as to be ridiculous. Okay, the world seems to be one where a company owning half the world's energy supplies - if I recalled that correctly - is seen as acceptable, which while it may feed into various real-world (i.e. our world) conspiracy theories seems unlikely, at least as something publicly acknowledged. But even in such a world, Saito's purchase of the airline would be public knowledge, as it must be a major airline: Fischer's security would be all over a minor airline, which would defeat the object of buying it in the first place.
  • Fischer's travel plans are easily overturned. A company that controls half the world's energy supplies hasn't got a spare private plane? Really? I would have thought that there'd be at least two at the airport, one for the now-invalid Fischer, Sr., one for his son, and possibly one for use by other senior employees (such as Fischer, Jr.'s godparent).
  • Once they have to fly on a commercial flight, Fischer, Jr. gets just the one seat. He has just lost his father and he's now head of that huge corporation, but there is no-one on hand to deal with any problems. Okay, they could be in business class (or worse), but are they really going to be prevented from accessing the big boss for a whole ten hours? Again, they may not have to, but the inception team is working on the assumption that they have ten straight hours.
  • Where are Fischer, Jr.'s security detail? He has plenty of gun-toting security guards in his head, but there are none on the plane**.
  • Come to think of it, Fischer, Jr. is possibly the most important man on the planet. And yet in the so-called 1st-level dream, he's standing on a street corner in the rain waiting to hail a cab. For someone trained to be wary of dreams, why is their no immediate reaction? (And something triggered those gun-toting thugs; why not use that trigger to get a known projection to say: "This is a dream"?)
The reason none of the plot points I've mentioned make much sense is that they're the sort of think one gets only in fiction; oh, and in dreams.

So getting back to Nolan's idea of the ending: Cobb walks away from the totem because he is reconciled to living in that dream and wants so much to believe it's reality that he doesn't dare to look.


But as I said at the beginning: a really good film: action-packed and thought-provoking. :):):)




** - The same is true for Saito on the Bullet Train. Where are this important man's security detail? Or his family? Or his business functionaries?
 
I thought Inception was a failure. Before I get into that, let's take a look at James P. Hogan's novel Realtime Interrupt, which may have been influential to both Inception and The Matrix. (All these stories owe a debt to Plato's "allegory of the cave" in The Republic.)

Realtime Interrupt tells the story of computer scientists attempting to design the first AI (artificial intelligence). They decide that a "top-down" (god-like) approach will not work because we do not yet know how sentience arose in ourselves. So they opt to teach a learning system through example. "Travel machines" (robots) with arms and eyes don't work very well because it is — again — a top-down approach figuring out how to teach a machine about the vast detail of the real world. So they build a virtual reality (VR) and "insert" real people into it. The volunteers are connected through a nerve induction system, rather than the crude, surgically implanted sockets seen in The Matrix.

During the exercise, the real people (surrogates) go about their daily lives, while computer controlled bots attempt to learn by the example. Time can be greatly compressed within the VR because the computer controls the nerve induction feedback. Real world researchers have found sensory deprivation tanks can distort a user's time sense when all cues to the outside world are removed. (This acceleration/deceleration of time was also used in Frederik Pohl's Man Plus, a story about a cyborg outfitted to live on Mars. The subject has been so heavily modified and all his senses moderated by a computer that he is essentially living in a VR, even as he moves about the real world.)

The researchers in Realtime Interrupt considered a computer induced amnesia to cover the seam between reality and VR, assuming the surrogates would behave more truthfully if they thought the VR was the real world. Although the idea was rejected, a powerful faction outside the VR has their own agenda and takes the entire project — and its surrogates — hostage. The surrogates then "live" a subjective 12 years inside the VR before the "Neo" of the story recalls his "back door" into the system (like the totems in Inception), thus giving him complete control over the VR. (Analogous to the scene in The Matrix where Neo "flexes his muscles" and turns the laws of physics upside-down.)

The Matrix had lots of plot holes: the machines using humans as a thermal and chemical energy source when they already have "a type of fusion" is absurd. Granting that, brainless vegetables would not need the additional maintenance of a VR. I can overlook these faults, as The Matrix had a stylish flair that made up the difference. I loved Agent Smith's peculiar lilt, and sight gags like putting the impersonal dark glasses back on while interrogating Neo. (Essentially saying, "Okay, no more Mr. Nice Guy.")

The similarities to Realtime Interrupt are obvious, including the agents/bots with their machine-like behavior, and the time distortion with the "bullet time" effect. (See timetrack.com) And giving people new skills as easily as one copies a computer file may have been inspired by Hogan's The Multiplex Man, in which the technique was the central theme.

Inception failed on many counts. I agree with those who say the movie was just too "clever" for its own good, much like the gimmicky Memento (perfect for an audience with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder). Our protagonists were supposed to be dream-diving, as in Dreamscape, or Paprika (which director Nolan acknowledged as an inspiration). But dreams don't need VR architects, nor do dreams have faulty details, like the rug in the opening scenes. Realtime Interrupt featured such a flaw when one of the characters spontaneously decides to dig a hole. Inside the hole he found a virtual nothingness — a black absence of anything. As he double-takes, the computer has time to insert the expected subsurface soil and roots. Ergo, Inception "pulled the rug" out from under its basic premise, a dreamworld.

Explaining the agents/bots of the Inception "dreamworld" as reacting to foreigners like white corpuscles was too forced and pretentious. But it was added to explain away all the action movie explosions and fire fighting later.

Inception was also inconsistent. We are told that the Moro reflex, or "startle reflex" is used to wake up a dreamer. The hotel dream world went into freefall because the dreamers one level up were falling off a bridge. So why was the whole elevator stunt necessary? The dreamers falling off the bridge should have been enough to dissolve the hotel dream world. (In other words, it was not the hotel world people that needed to be startled awake.)

Ultimately, the film failed its title, too. We are told that an idea must be planted in Fischer Jr's head so seamlessly that he thought it was his own. Yet all the team really did was double-talk him into breaking up his empire. As Ursa Major and others pointed out, the Mission: Impossible team did this on a weekly basis with less fanfare. And Mal also died of an obsession, not some idea she thought she'd hatched herself.

In short, Inception featured a lot of standard issue action film chases and explosions with a little irrational philosophy cotton candy for the brain.

(And what was that whole "rosebud" scene with the pinwheel in the vault? It was just as anti-climactic when Citizen Kane pulled that stunt.)
 
I enjoyed Inception for what it was: a heist film with a brain. It was Mission: Impossiblein the mind, with a lot of cool concepts, a bit of mystery, and more than its share of eye-dropping set pieces. It had more brains than the average thriller, and yet manages to satisfy on both a visceral and an intellectual level. Does it have its flaws? Yes. Is it too smart for its own good? Probably (and that's one of Nolan's minor flaws: he tries to outsmart himself with each film).

But is it well acted? Does the plot hold together enough for you to enjoy it while you're watching it? Most importantly, is it just tremendously entertaining?

Hell yes. And at the end of the day, that's all I want a film to be.
 
I watched Inception for the first time yesterday, I'm a tad slow on the uptake generally and this of course was no exception. I struggled to get my head around it from the off, but, realising this film deserved a bit more effort than the standard action pulp I continued watching and after a while it began to make sense(kinda) I'm still a little vague on the "Mal" thread, From what I understand she is truely dead, and only exists in Coobs dream state, created by his unconsious mind out of gilt? and that would explain why she is constantly trying to sabotage Cobb's efforts? Cobb's way of punishing himself, as we discover that he was ultimately responsible for her death?
The one thing I don't understand with the Mal - Cobb thing, is why didn't She/He spin the top to prove they where back in reality? And why did they both use the same Totem?
 
If I may throw my own thoughts into the fray in answer to a couple of things:

Our protagonists were supposed to be dream-diving, as in Dreamscape, or Paprika (which director Nolan acknowledged as an inspiration). But dreams don't need VR architects, nor do dreams have faulty details, like the rug in the opening scenes.

To me, it does make some kind of sense. If someone is dreaming on their own, then yes, there's no need for an architect. Get a bunch of different minds together, however, and I can imagine that if the world was left to them, the strongest would win out over the others. The use of the architect is to design a shared dream world. Don't forget that, in the Inception universe, shared dreaming is a military invention used for the training of soldier - they'd have needed a way to be able to control the environments they put the soldiers in.

Inception was also inconsistent. We are told that the Moro reflex, or "startle reflex" is used to wake up a dreamer. The hotel dream world went into freefall because the dreamers one level up were falling off a bridge. So why was the whole elevator stunt necessary? The dreamers falling off the bridge should have been enough to dissolve the hotel dream world. (In other words, it was not the hotel world people that needed to be startled awake.)

This is explained in the film - the sedative used by Yusuf has to be incredibly powerful to allow for the complexity, and depths, of the shared dreams - which implies that the sedative travels down the layers with the dreamers (and, I believe, is backed up with the fact that the time that can be spent at each depth is exponential at an alarming rate - months and years rather than hours and days). The standard "kick", that sense of falling, isn't enough, so they need something stronger, like an explosion taking away the floor, like a lift crashing down and flinging you up, like a van hitting an expanse of water after a high fall. The riding the kick was simply a fancy way of stringing it all together for the sake of drama (and, to some extent, to meet the ten hour deadline).

I watched Inception for the first time yesterday, I'm a tad slow on the uptake generally and this of course was no exception. I struggled to get my head around it from the off, but, realising this film deserved a bit more effort than the standard action pulp I continued watching and after a while it began to make sense(kinda) I'm still a little vague on the "Mal" thread, From what I understand she is truely dead, and only exists in Coobs dream state, created by his unconsious mind out of gilt? and that would explain why she is constantly trying to sabotage Cobb's efforts? Cobb's way of punishing himself, as we discover that he was ultimately responsible for her death?

The one thing I don't understand with the Mal - Cobb thing, is why didn't She/He spin the top to prove they where back in reality? And why did they both use the same Totem?

More or less, yes - Mal was kept 'alive' in Cobb's mind because she starred in a number of his regrets. I think, in the film, it's mentioned that he doesn't want to forget them (which gives us the third meaning to the title - throughout the film, a few characters say to Cobb that he doesn't want to die an old man "filled with regrets" - something that goes all the way down to limbo and comes back up to change him).

We see a scene of Cobb in his shared limbo with Mal, spinning the top and putting it back in the safe to show her that she's in a dream. What he doesn't realise is that this idea rears its head back at the top level and, ultimately, kills her.

As for the totem, I don't think we ever actually see Cobb's original totem. The spinning top is Mal's, which I assume he's using because of the sentimental value.
 
The use of the architect is to design a shared dream world... they'd have needed a way to be able to control the environments they put the soldiers in.

That's.
Not.
Dreaming.

That is called VR—virtual reality. And Hogan touched on this detail in Realtime Interrupt, too. The virtual worlds were so detailed that they'd bog down the computer. So rather than try to photograph and "map" an entire real city into the VR, the programmers learned how to "suggest" detail by stimulating common concepts.

Get a bunch of different minds together, however, and I can imagine that if the world was left to them, the strongest would win out over the others.

If you could truly partake in someone else's dream, then you would already be "surrendering" to their world. But dreams are involuntary. Current science has yet to nail down exactly what dreams are and where in the brain they originate. Dreams seem to be a "sorting and filing" system for memories and experiences.

What the team in Inception was doing was more akin to hypnosis and the planting of a post-hynoptic suggestion. The highly structured form of the experience makes it a kind of virtual reality and not a dream.
 
I enjoyed Inception but it's not the greatest movie ever made. In my opinion, all that Nolan has done is to take a trap that many writers starting out fall into (in the end it was all a dream) and camouflaged its true nature by multi-layering it.

It also created the perfect canvas for a heist movie that left room for manouver if needed by using the dream nature of it to bend the laws of physics.

Was Cobb dreaming in the end? Does it really matter? All that matters is that you enjoyed it (or not). Let's face it, we're all meant to be left wondering.
 
I agree wholeheartedly with Foxbat and it is never good to nitpick these things too deeply.

If you still want to though, the taking of very strong sedatives taken would tend to preclude dreaming anyway. I read on BBC News a few weeks ago that Doctors now think that anaesthesia is more like a self-induced coma than sleeping, and are actively studying patients waking from anaesthetics in order to better understand those waking from comas. In a coma the brain functions completely shut down.

Vividly recalled dreams mostly occur during REM sleep. REM sleep in adult humans typically occupies 20–25% of total sleep and is physiologically different from the other phases of sleep. It is during REM sleep that the "sorting and filling" of "memories and experiences" mentioned by Metryq takes place and the brain is far from shut down during this period.

The only problem with that is that I am quite sure that I remember a reoccurring dream I would have as a child under general anaesthetic at the dentists involving a long staircase. So maybe it just depends on the strength of the anaesthetic.
 
Did the Inception Fail?

So, the point of the "inception" in the film was to get Fischer to break up his father's company. However, it is never mentioned whether he even has the power to do so.

In the dream sequences, they convince him to break the company up by telling him about another will, that gave him power, and the chance to "create something for himself."

However, the second will was an invention of Cobb and co., and whether or not such a will existed in the real world or not is not made clear. Thus, it seems possible that while the inception might have been a success, the end result (breaking up of the company) might not have happened, since Fischer may never have had the power to break up the company to begin with.

It is implied that the existing (primary) will (the one that had been filed at the law firm) did NOT give Fischer the power to break the company up. When he and Browning are chained up, Fischer seems to imply that the original will was different than the imaginary second will in that the latter gave him the power to break up the company, while the former did NOT.

Anyone see my confusion here?

Thoughts?

(BTW, Inception is one of my favorite recent films!)
 
Re: Did the Inception Fail?

As someone who believes that Cobb is still dreaming at the conclusion of the film, I feel that there is no need for the "foreground" inception to work, because the (real) inception, the one that convinces him that he has woken up, has worked. (In fact, the very lack of interest in whether the foreground inception works helps convince me that Cobb is still dreaming.)

Consider the situation: Mr Saito agrees that he will pull the necessary strings to allow Cobb to enter the US with no possibility of arrest; he pre-agrees this even though he knows he will have no idea how Fischer, Jr. will react to the inception, to the extent that there is little Fischer, Jr. can do on (and from) the plane to implement what Mr Saito wants. What it all seems to be is wish fulfilment on Cobb's part, with enough barriers in the way to make it look like an achievement, although it is not; in fact, Cobb and his imaginary friends have to overcome just enough resistance to let Cobb believe he has won something worthwhile, even though he never leaves his own head.

The whole plot is Cobb's mind reconciling him to his fate: an imaginary life with the imaginary versions of his children.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You probably did not understand the whole concept of what was happening. I agree it is probably the most complex movie I have ever seen but it made sense to me from the first minute.
 

Similar threads


Back
Top