Thoughts about Stannis *CAUTION SPOILERS*

[The Imp]

I'm in the middle of my 4th reading of ASOIAF and just yesterday finished the Cat chapter where Renly is murdered. Something just clicked and led to a few thoughts and questions which I wanted to share.

It's very clear from the text that the shadow that slew Renly is that of Stannis. Given the way magic has worked in the series, my thought is that he would have had to have been at least a partially willing participant in the "process" that created the shadow, maybe a completely willing one. I am, of course, assuming that Melisandre was "pulling the strings".

When first thinking about this event one could first say how could the man who is so rigid, so righteous, so moral, allow such a thing to happen. How could he murder his own brother, and use dark magic to do the deed? Why was he even willing to allow the Red Priestess into his life? He certainly didn't have a claim to the Iron Throne at the point that Meli attached herself to his wife. He wouldn't have had any thoughts about his brother Robert meeting an untimely death. Or did he? In any case, let's focus on the murder of Renly.

STannis allowed this to happen and/or was an active participant because one thing is paramount in his mind above all else. His was the rightful claim to the throne, and he deserved it by any means necessary. Murdering Renly as a shadow in his tent was not much different than slayinging him on the battlefiled. The big difference was one scenario is honorable, the other is treacherous. Treachery is the antithesis of who Stannis is, which almost leads you to beleive that the act was cmmitted without his consent, but you then realize that the only reason that Stannis was so confident about victory over what would seem to be the overwhelming power of Renly would have been the ace up melisandre's sleeve- The Shadow.

In any event, let's move forward to the future. It's entirely poissible that Stannis will emrge as the one true King. Tommen is a bastrd and an abomination, and Bran is still alive to tell his tale. Stannis could easily it The Iron throne.

But how does he justify his claim over Dany's?? What will he do when Dany shows up and claims what is rightfully hers? Will/would he dismiss this claim because she is a woman? Would he claim might over right?

What are your thoughts about Stannis, his actions, and where he's going in the story?

 

[Ursa major]

Re: Thoughts about Stannis ** SPOILERS **

Murdering Renly as a shadow in his tent was not much different than slayinging him on the battlefiled. The big difference was one scenario is honorable, the other is treacherous.

If Stannis was a willing participant, he could well have justified his action as:

1. a cheap - in terms of blood spilt - way of ridding the land of one of its usurpers;
2. a way of getting all the opponents of the Lannister coup on the same side;
3. a way of forstalling another battle for the crown (before or after the Lannisters have been expelled from the throne).

If Stannis didn't see himself as acting in the realm's best interests, he would hardly have moved his forces where he did.


PS. Could you put the word, Spoilers, in the thread title, please, Imp.

 

[No One]

Re: Thoughts about Stannis

I may be mistaken, but I got the impression that Stannis was largely ignorant of the exact means by which Renly was assassinated.

Sure, he willingly partook of Melisande's rituals/spells to rid himself of the false kings, but is knowledge of the details specifically noted anywhere in his words or thoughts? Is he even aware that his apparent decline in health seems linked to Melisande's summonings of the Shadow?

As you say Imp, it all runs contrary to Stannis's rigid "honour" and code of conduct, and while Ursa could be right, maybe Stannis also simply considers the consequences as "divine intervention" by the Lord of Light, as opposed to any direct action from Melisande. Or, if he is aware, maybe he feels justified because of the supposed prophesy he fulfills and his wielding of Lightbringer.

As to where he's going in the story - well, what happens if/when he realizes he is not the prophesied saviour of the realm? Will he turn his own brand of austere justice on himself or turn hypocrite? Who knows, maybe he'll end up leading the Others! Or maybe Jon (or Gendry, who's my pick to sit the throne when all is said and done) will do for Stannis. Or, of course, none of the above.

Tommen is a ******* and an abomination

A harsh, even if true, summary of poor little Tommen there Imp

 

[JDP]

Re: Thoughts about Stannis

I think Stannis truly believes that he is Azor Ahai (sp?). Thus pretty much anything goes in the name of saving Westeros from the Others. Whether he is under some sort of glamour from Melisandre or just believes it off his own back I'm yet to decide.

Also, I don't think Stannis is a man who directly correlates honour/dishonour with right/wrong. Therefore it would be irrelevant whether assassinating Renly with a Shadow was honourable or not. Renly was a usurper and therefore had to be stopped by the most efficacious manner possible. Storm's End is too powerful a fortress to be taken by siege, so other means had to be used. Thus the Right Thing is done, however (arguably) dishonourable the means...

 

[Young stormlord]

Re: Thoughts about Stannis

I got impression that Stannis has no idea what happened when Renly was murdered, and he said so to Davos. I don't know the exact quote but it's something like "I was in bed, soundly asleep, your son Devan tried to wake me up, I should have been up and leading my army agains Renly. I had this horrible dream but... when I woke up, Renly was dead, his army was falling apart and my hands were clean." And, much later. "I swear to you Davos, I'll go to grave thinking of my brother's peach."

I think that he has let Melissandre sleep with him but has no idea why. Maybe she told him she'll "clean" him of bad magic, or that he needs to relax or something... I don't know, but I don't think it's intentional shadow killing.

 

[Koopa]

Re: Thoughts about Stannis

But how does he justify his claim over Dany's?? What will he do when Dany shows up and claims what is rightfully hers? Will/would he dismiss this claim because she is a woman? Would he claim might over right?

What are your thoughts about Stannis, his actions, and where he's going in the story?

Right of conquest. the Targs lost the throne to the Baratheons.
Tommen is claiming to be a Baratheon but isn't one, and Renly was his kid brother, but still within the family.

As for Stannis, i've found that for all his flaws the man is growing on me.
Besides Robb, he's the King i liked best.

 

[The Judge]

Re: Thoughts about Stannis ** SPOILERS **

PS. Could you put the word, Spoilers, in the thread title, please, Imp.

Have now done for you. (Sorry it's late, I'm not an habitué here.)

 

[hadd]

Re: Thoughts about Stannis

I think that he has let Melissandre sleep with him but has no idea why. Maybe she told him she'll "clean" him of bad magic, or that he needs to relax or something... I don't know, but I don't think it's intentional shadow killing.

Well as the birth of one of the shadows Melissandre cast was sort of shown to us then a procedure that requires Stannis to have sex with her would make sense a bit...As Melissandre did "give birth" to that one shadow and Stannis grew weaker/older/more fragile with each time a shadow was cast.

I myself have a feeling that Stannis will die (perhaps rushing into battle against the others thinking that Lightbringer will slash through them but as we all know the sword doesn't have the special powers it should, at least in his hands) and Melissandre will soon feel that Jon must take up that part...

 

[Mesanna]

I feel for Stannis. He's not particularly likeable, but he is (usually) honourable. I wonder how it will affect him to discover that he's not the prophesied saviour. Having said that, how does an honourable man justify sleeping with a woman who isn't his wife? Does he tell himself it's OK if it's for the good of the realm? Mel may well be using some kind of glamour or Jedi mind trick on him, but more likely he's just mind-tricked himself, believing what he wants to believe and see, rather than what's really there.

I can see Stannis dying an honourable and glorious death fighting Others beyond the wall. He'll choose this path to redeem himself when he wakes up and faces his past transgressions. Though, what the hell do I know

I believe Mel will be a POV character in the next book? Is that correct, does anyone know? I really, really hope so. I wonder if she'll be like Jaime, in that many don't like her right now, but will change their mind once they understand her motivations. Personally, I think she's baaaaad.

 

[Bazza]

I've always thought not necessarily honor, but justice is what drives Stannis. I think he's the epitomy of hardcore conservative justice. He believes he should be king because that is how the laws of inheritance are written. He's not terribly worried about the means to which he achieves this goal, as long as it is legal and the ends justifies the means. He hires pirates, knights former smugglers, and subscribes to powerful magic to achieve these goals. He admits he doesn't like either, but recognizes the need for it. I think he has his limits just like every other character, for instance I don't think he was knowledgable of the Shadow sent forth against his brother, and likely would not have condoned his assassination. He is fundamentally different than Eddard's suit of armor. His armor is made of justice, not honor. I think that that armor will weigh him down however, as it did Eddard. A bleak future indeed, GRRM is not a fan of black and white characters.

I believe Mel will be a POV character in the next book? Is that correct, does anyone know?

Yes, she will be, unofficially proclaimed through a series of hints provided by GRRM. (Unless of course he changes things around).

 

[TK-421]

It was pretty official from GRRM. Mel has one chapter in ADWD and it will reveal her true intentions and answer the question: is she a fake or for real.

 

[Mesanna]

@Bazza I think you're right about justice, rather than honour, driving Stannis, e.g. Davos saves him during a siege, yet he still feels the need to punish him for the crime of being a smuggler. And yet, he treats Davos with respect now, and encourages him to speak his mind, so I cut him some slack for that. But, yeah, he is certainly rigid in his thinking. I also felt that the fact he decided to put the realm, rather than his bid for kingship, first bought him some honour too, but maybe that also comes under "Must do what is right".

I can't believe that he didn't know Renly was going to be assassinated. He may not have known exactly how it was going to happen, but surely he must have had an inkling that bad things were going to happen to his brother. Poor Renly and his peach!

Can't wait to read Mel's POVs. I think she's for real, just mistaken in her choices. I want to know whether R'hllor is a good or bad guy/entity/being whatever! I think he/it is just the flip side of the Others.

 

[Ursa major]

There's an assumption built in to our desire to read Mel's POV: that she really knows what is going on (even if only about part of what's been so far hidden from us). But she may not. Just because she can do some magic does not mean that she fully understands it or can wield it properly. She may, like so many other characters, be an unwitting pawn in some greater scheme. Someone may be pulling her strings (which could be true, whatever her beliefs and real powers).

That her POV chapter is to appear in the fifth book of seven hardly indicates that we will be a lot wiser after reading it (although I guess we're all so desperate to get a handle on anything that we'll feed on every "fact" revealed and hint given).

 

[The Imp]

There's an assumption built in to our desire to read Mel's POV: that she really knows what is going on (even if only about part of what's been so far hidden from us). But she may not. Just because she can do some magic does not mean that she fully understands it or can wield it properly. She may, like so many other characters, be an unwitting pawn in some greater scheme. Someone may be pulling her strings (which could be true, whatever her beliefs and real powers).

That her POV chapter is to appear in the fifth book of seven hardly indicates that we will be a lot wiser after reading it (although I guess we're all so desperate to get a handle on anything that we'll feed on every "fact" revealed and hint given).

She knows what happened to Renly, or rather, how it happened. She can, at the very least, explain what her motivations are. She can tell us it she serves herself and her God or someone more sinister. She can tell us a lot , even if it's just one chapter.

 

[Ursa major]

I agree with what you say there, TI.

What I don't think we'll get (or if we do, we'll be very, very lucky) is more than a glimpse of the wider picture, either because Mel doesn't know it or because she has only a single source for the really deep information (who, and I know that this has never before happened in ASoIaF, has not been very truthful with her unless he or she couldn't avoid being so).

 

[TK-421]

I have an inkling that there may be a link to Marwin and the candle burning in the Citadel that may be revealed here. The crumbs about magic are suttle but there.

 

[Ursa major]

Excellent.


And I'd rather have subtlety: where would all our GRRM threads be if everything was made obvious?

 

[Mesanna]

Well I'm hoping we get some of the back story about R'hllor v Others, and Mel is in a good position to give us some info. Surely it's time we got more of the big picture, since the whole series has been subtly pointing toward this battle since the start. It would be interesting if we got the "Fire" POV from Mel and perhaps an "Ice" POV from Bran as he learns from Cold Hands/Three Eyed Crow or whoever. This would be rather fun and right up GRRM's street, as he would litter each character's speeches with contradictions and half-truths and leave it up to us to figure out what's really true and what isn't.

 

[Boaz]

I was thinking of Donal Noye's comments about the Baratheon brothers, their physical characteristics, their personalities, and their aspirations in the context of my supreme unified conspiracy theory that I've never been able to quite pull together...

Anyway, when I plugged the Baratheons into the theory, the output said that Stannis was actually Aerys' *******. So Stannis' claim as Robert's heir is actually fallacious, but he actually is the eldest surving child of Aerys...

You guys know that the proof I have for Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, and Jon all being Aerys' bastards is thin, at best. Well, the proof for Stannis is nonexistent... I've nothing. I'm just looking for a way to explain his demeanor and physical appearance. Robert and Renly were both six and a half feet of chiseled muscle, curly raven locks and charismatic, engaging, and jovial personalities.

 

[juleska]

Well there are bound to be some differences in personality between siblings....look at the Starks. Do any of us question that Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon are all the children of Ned and Cat? Yet the differences in their personalities are considerable. None more so than Sansa and Arya. Rickon was so young when we last saw him but he was so often described to have the same wild streak that Arya carries. Sansa is most like Robb of all her siblings but even then she's so different from the rest of them.

Stannis has been described as having the same physical characteristics (the same eyes, the same color hair) which are the traits that GRRM most often relies on to establish familial relations. We have zero evidence that the Raper King would've had opportunity or inclination to have his way with Stannis' mum, so.....not only is your evidence for this nonexistent, the evidence against it is fairly overwhelming. Sorry Boaz....I often follow you down the rabbit trail but this one is a bridge too far.