Thoughts about Stannis *CAUTION SPOILERS*

I think that Stannis will die in a battle against the Boltons. Roose and Ramsay Bolton are going to die in TWoW, I just have a feeling about that one. Hopefully it will be a brutal end, especially for Ramsay. Would be poetic justice if Theon is the one that gets to kill him.
 
I think it was Tyrion who had taken note about Stannis not having the same thirst for battle as his brother, Robert and prefers to command among the reserves which Lord Tywin is wont to do. But I misremember if Stannis had crossed Blackwater Rush and to which gate did he attacked--if it's the Mud Gate or the King's Gate... Lemme revisit my Clash. :eek:
 
I just watched the final episode of the second season. In Stannis' and Melisandre's last scene, Stannis confesses to killing Renly and Mel tells him they both did it. Stannis, dressed in breastplate and black, is standing facing the window, back to the Painted Table, while Mel, in her glorious red gown and fire red hair, is bathed in torchlight behind him. At that moment, the comparison to Macbeth was obvious.

In Shakespeare's Macbeth, we have a story of ambition, manipulation, manhood, murder, and witchcraft. Like Macbeth, Stannis is an obedient and very capable general. Like Macbeth, Stannis is a just man. Macbeth met three witches, while Stannis met just one... but both men received prophecies from the witches that they would ascend to the throne. Upon learning this, both men take steps to secure the throne.... by killing a kinsman. Like Macbeth, Stannis has his manhood questioned. And both men seem powerless at times to curb the manipulative women by their sides.

Ambition. In school, I was taught this was the overriding theme of Macbeth. Macbeth was content to be a battle commander for the king until the witches filled his head with temptations. Stannis was always content to be Robert's captain. Even when Robert rebelled, Stannis chose family over duty. And when Robert denied Storm's End to Stannis, Stannis stayed loyal. It was only after Jon Arryn was murdered, Robert was dead, and Melisandre started speaking of Azor Ahai that Stannis' ambitions came to the forefront. He calls it duty. He calls it rights. But he could easily have closed his eyes and supported Joffrey or served Renly. Pressing his rights (ambition) has left thousands upon thousands dead.

Manipulation. Lady Macbeth is one of the greatest villainesses (is that a word?) of drama. She pushes Macbeth... in fact, his ambition is fueled by her insatiable ambition. She called his manhood into question to force him to kill King Duncan. Like Lady Macbeth, Melisandre's ambition pushes Stannis to direct action. Little by little, Mel has moved Stannis from religious reform, to a military campaign, to adultery, to summoning demons, to murdering Renly, to witchcraft, to murdering his own nephew... When the story started, Stannis was the Master of Laws, aka the Attorney General and the Supreme Court in one! The righteous man that was Stannis is long gone.

Manhood. Macbeth's masculinity was questioned by his wife. Macbeth's own lack of children, especially a son, is a stain upon Macbeth's manhood. Macbeth tries to emasculate both Banquo and Macduff by killing their offspring. Stannis' manhood is questioned early and often in the story. He derives no pleasure from intercourse. He only has one daughter... and Littlefinger and Cersei later spread the rumor that he's been cuckolded by Patchface... a lie, but it's readily believed.

Murder. The list of Macbeth's victims is long... King Duncan, Duncan's guards, Banquo, Lady Macduff, Macduff's children, and others. He also tried and failed to kill Banquo's son, Fleance. The murders started with Duncan to bring Macbeth closer to the throne and they continued in order to conceal Macbeth's involvement, to establish his hold on the throne, and to intimidate his enemies. Like Macbeth, Stannis began his murders in order to promote his claim to the throne by killing a kinsman. In fact, the kinsman was his younger brother, Renly. To further establish his power, he murderd Ser Cortney Penrose. And to remove rivals, he planned to murder his nephew, Edric Storm. After Davos sent Edric into exile, Stannis murdered Lord Alester Florent in a ritual of witchcraft to curse and kill his enemies abroad.

Witchcraft. In Macbeth, and in western lit and society, witchcraft is the domain of evil. Chaos. Death. Treachery. The allure of witchcraft for Macbeth was the obvious displays of power. Melisandre also displays power that neither the Maesters, the Septons, nor Stannis' captains can. Stannis confessed that is why he changed religions. He does not care what that power is... evil or good... he only cares what it can do for him. The combination of ambition and dark powers was too seductive even for a man of renowned iron will.

Those are some observations. Tell me I'm way off or agree that Stannis' story is Shakespearean Tragedy.
 
I think that the Stannis/MacBeth correlation is probably spot on, and GRRM probably is aware of this as well.

That being said, the story has diverged quite a bit since that point. Also probably want to note that for a tragedy to be "tragic" we have to care about the hero and like him despite his fatal character flaw. I'm not sure GRRM has built up Stannis to be that hero.
 
I agree that Stannis is not the hero of the story. In fact, Macbeth is only the protagonist of Macbeth for about thirty seconds... he quickly becomes the villain.

Two friends of mine, brothers in fact, both love Stannis. He's their favorite character. Their father was a captain in the Marines... and they think justice and honor is the be-all and end-all for society. The seem to have not glimpsed Stannis' lost honor.
 
It is interesting that the character with the most rigid sense of honor, Stannis, is currently facing off against the family with (debateably)least sense of honor, the Boltons.

Looks like a Lawful Good vs Chaotic Evil pairing.
 
Nice touch on the alignments, Tywin. I guess I am not the only D&D player around.

Anyway, the fact that the story has devolved into a big heaping of Necromancy has actually turned me off quite a bit. I want to pull for Stannis, but he knowingly consorts with a Necro/Pyromancer. I just can't get behind him.

Cat Stark is now just some zombie and that isn't even bringing up all the Necro stuff that is happening in King's Landing.

Could we possibly get back to something resembling a medieval fantasy story or do I get to read another 1000 pages about Necromancers?
 
Reivax, I've heard the long term plan for the series was to gradually increase the magical elements. I have a feeling there will be a lot of undead.

I think the characters are done so that we can't totally get behind any one of them. There is always a sense of unease. Stannis, Eddard, Catelyn, Arya. Even Tyrion, well, he killed his father and his sweetie, much as it is understandable. It is not something that one with a conscience can recommend, no matter how much we may like him.

Like the idea of Stannis as MacBeth. I remember now how annoying it was to play with lawful good characters in D&D! I guess the witches and Lady MacBeth were seen to warp a lawful good man till he becomes chaotic and evil??!
 
I have no problem with increasing the magical elements of a story. The part that got me confused was where Necromancy in a few variations was the form of magic that was pressed onto people.

Speaking as a long time player of Paladins in D&D, it isn't hard to play a Lawful Good character. Its actually rather easy. The hard ones are the Neutrals, because you never know how someone is going to react.
 
"Playing" and "Living" Lawful Good are completely different things. The world doesn't give you easy choices, especially when you are responsible for large numbers of people. The hard choices are normally a choice between "Bad" and "A little worse".

The easy choices of what to do get handled by the people underneath you, and the hard ones raise to the top because the subordinates are afraid to make the wrong call.
 
Tywin, I think you are right about the difficulty of choices! And leadership. Although I was just reading a book called Search Inside Yourself, written by a top manager at Google that suggest that emotional intelligence helps leaders and can help to foster happiness.

One of the many reasons that I like this series, is that none of the leaders are mistake free (Stannis, Cersei, Robert, Robb, Renly), , lots of the "good" guys struggle and blow it (Barristan even), good intentions can mess things up big time (Dany, Eddard), hard difficult decisions are made, costs are taken, warriors have different points of view. Certainly that is my experience of life and history! Fantasy can gloss over this, but not here.
 
At that moment, the comparison to Macbeth was obvious.

That's a very good point. Suddenly, Stannis as a MacBeth subplot seems to make total sense. The only thing missing is his Duncan.

However, GRRM is on record as saying that a key inspiration for Stannis was the portrayal of Tiberius in I, Cladiu:
http://grrm.livejournal.com/310379.html?thread=17203819

Presumably, that's as far as it goes - there's otherwise little resemblance between the historical debauchery of Tiberius and the puritan Stannis. :)
 
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The Macbeth comparison is perfect. But if this similarity continues on to his death then Brienne must be Macduff! Macduff (Brienne) suspects Macbeth (Stannis) of Regicide and then kills him in battle (or just after a battle). Plus Macbeth believed he could not be killed by a man born of a woman, and Brienne is not a man. Brilliant.

This makes sense for the TV series but I don't think she is near Stannis in the book when he is taking on the Boltons. Maybe later.
 
To me, Stannis is very comparable to Macbeth. He is a victorious and honorable general, but without prospects of ever being promoted. Then he meets a witch. Soon the idea of his destiny as King takes hold (even more so with his wife) and he will do whatever it takes to fulfill it.

In ASOIAF, both King Robert and Maester Cressen could represent Duncan. Stannis kills neither, but he did not save either of them. And their deaths signify the end of moral order in the realm and Stannis' heart, respectively. Chaos reigns and Stannis (like Macbeth) goes with the flow. Stannis' murder of Renly signifies the point of no return. Renly may be a bit of Duncan, but he certainly represents Banquo. Selyse is Lady Macbeth.

Melisandre represents the witches... and more specifically, Hecate. She gives visions of what might be... She plants desires of greatness.. and provides the excuse of destiny. The ends justify the means if you're the chosen one. She is the witch/goddess of the crossroads. She offers many temptations disguised as choices, but takes responsibility for nothing.

Maybe Jon is Malcom. Edric Storm is Fleance. But who is Macduff? Roose? Yuck. The Boltons are unsatisfying...

I guess that is as far as I can take this comparison... but it makes me think of King Lear. A King, a fool, flatterers, and one person telling truth.
 

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