WINDS: Something darker -- 1000 words

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Teresa Edgerton

Goblin Princess
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This is a different character, in circumstances quite different from the last excerpt. Less color and magic, and more grit. This will be the first time that readers will be seeing this character since the previous book, so the excerpt, which is the beginning of a chapter, starts with a little bit of recap to remind readers of his situation.

There is one potential problem that I would particularly like feedback about.

I wonder if this reads too much like an info-dump, because it is one big expository lump with no dialogue and no scenes of interaction with other characters. However, he is supposed to be isolated much of the time and I really want to get that across, and also I am reluctant to make up conversations and interactions that don't do anything to advance the plot, just for the sake of breaking this up.

But maybe I have to.

On the other hand, if I simply decide to cut it down, it may seem like I am trivializing the horrors of his particular situation. He is an important character, and I don't want to minimize the consequences of the actions (shown in the previous book) that brought him here.

Nevertheless, it may need to be cut.

Again, this is book three, names can't be changed, and it's too late to alter my style, even if I decided it was desirable.

But before I begin, a long explanation of two things that are barely mentioned in the excerpt. Just so that you don't trip over them. The part about darkness solidifying into earth is a reference to natural (which from our point of view would be magical) laws in the universe of this book, which were already mentioned in a previous volume. Basically, there are eight elements. The inanimate elements: darkness, light, air, and mist. And a higher form of each of these, which are the animate elements: the classical earth, fire, wind, and water. Earth is animate darkness. There is a certain amount of natural transmutation going on. Just as mist can condense into water, darkness can condense into earth, and so forth. As in medieval alchemy, metals grow inside the matrix of the earth.

And after all this ... finally we come to the excerpt itself.



In the dark of the mine there was neither day nor night, only long cycles of grindingly hard labor under the lash of pitiless overseers, punctuated by brief periods of mind-numbed rest. Prince Cuillioc, still weakened by his long illness, bruised and limping after the beatings he had suffered as Lord Vaz’s prisoner in Persit, believed he would find a swift release in death.

The life of a mine slave was brutally hard: working with pick and mallet, chiseling the silver ore from the earth, breathing in the dust of metals and minerals. In the beginning, the Prince worked with three or four other men at the same face, in the glare of a pine torch held by one of the guards. Where the rock was hardest, men worked in pairs, one holding the gad and one the mallet.

Swinging the hammer caused such a burn to his muscles, Cuillioc felt a weary sense of relief whenever the time came to switch places, though holding the chisel was by far the more dangerous task. Other slaves gathered up the loose chunks of ore in leather bags and dragged them along the tunnel to the base of a ladder. There, two more men put the ore into baskets and handed them up with much backbreaking effort to other men at the top.

Sometimes there came a warning rumble; then a jolt passed through the entire mine. The slaves paused in their work to listen. No one ran, because no one knew exactly where disaster would strike. All around him, Cuillioc could hear men babbling out prayers to the gods that they worshipped. He simply stood silent, the sweat on his body turning cold. Then somewhere a ceiling fell with a crash, burying fifty or a hundred men. Much later, when the earth had settled, a party of slaves would be detailed to dig a new tunnel, to get at the vein from another angle.

In such cruel conditions, men either lost hope and died quickly, or else grew angry and violent, lashing out in vicious rages. But if a man did not perish by misadventure, or his fellow slaves did not murder him, the dust eventually did, for the matrix in which the silver developed was full of poisons, which he breathed in with every gasping breath. The overseers wore masks and rarely approached too closely while the work was in progress, to avoid breathing in the deadly particles. Yet rumor had it that they, too, lived shortened lives, and died an ugly death. It was work for men who had themselves lost hope.

But rather than dying, Cuillioc felt his strength gradually returning; even the leg he had thought permanently lamed healed. Worse, his desire for life began to revive, and that was a shameful thing. That he had survived the debacle in Xanthipei was a disgrace for which his death could scarcely atone; that a Prince of Phaorax should cling to life in such degrading conditions was immeasurably worse.

He realized one day that the guards, though brutal to all, and profane and quarrelsome even among themselves, were slower to punish him than the other slaves, that his punishments, however cruel, were invariably lighter than those meted out to the rest. By that time, others had also recognized this apparent favoritism, and out of a natural resentment excluded him from their rough fellowship. Cuillioc made no attempt to enlighten them. Even had they known the truth—that Lord Vaz kept him alive only so that he might some day soon be summoned back to Persit for more questions, more threats, more beatings—it would not have made a difference.

Miles and miles of tunnels riddled the mountain overhead, but the miners delved ever deeper, following wherever the richest veins led them. Sometimes they broke through into a natural cavern, a vast space of black air under the earth. There were (Cuillioc gathered from hearing the other men speak among themselves) dangerous places in the mine where darkness was gradually solidifying into earth, where the air that men breathed grew increasingly heavy and filled their lungs with grit. Such stories were horrifying enough, but sometimes, it was said, the process inexplicably speeded up, and a tunnel would fill in behind a party of workers so swiftly they had no time to escape.

When it came time to rest, he and his fellow slaves were shackled in pairs and allowed a brief period of sleep, sometimes in the utter dark of the mine, more often by the flickering light of distant torches, while another party of men continued to work further down the same tunnel. Yet for Cuillioc sleep was not always possible, as exhaustion competed with the pain of strained muscles when the labor had been particularly arduous. How many days and week passed in this way he had no way of counting.

At last, just as he had expected, Lord Vaz sent for him. Guards hustled him up a series of ladders, then out through the entrance of the mine, into a biting wind. Dazzled by the light, he covered his eyes against the aching brilliance of a winter day. They tossed him into a wagon that transported him across the miles to Persit, still in his dirt and his chains.

 
No, TE, this does not sound like too much infodumping to me. It sounds like the right amount of description for the scene, especially since if I remember correctly, A Dark Sacrifice didn't end with Cuillioc being in any mines. You might think you have too much in, but I find it important that you include what you have here to build up the Cuillioc's current character and the reasoning behind his change. Yes, Cuillioc never was the tough man, never really was the one to receive much reward, and this scene somehow makes him sound tougher and less someone to bother with. I can see how his mind has nearly snapped due to the conditions, his shame, and the treatment Vaz has apparently put him through.



This is sounding better and better all the time and makes me only more and more impatient to get. :D :D :D :D :D
 
I agree with you on that, Riff. I feel that this scene was drawn nicely and any concerns on it containing anything it doesn't need to is unfounded.


Not exactly sure how it could easily be any longer or claustrophobic, but, it's not unbalanced on the heavy side at all. :)
 
Definitely not info-dumpy. I'd actually go so far as to call it an atmosphere piece. I have only one comment which others may or may not agree on:

Miles and miles of tunnels riddled the mountain overhead, but the miners delved ever deeper, following wherever the richest veins led them. Sometimes they broke through into a natural cavern, a vast space of black air under the earth. There were (Cuillioc gathered from hearing the other men speak among themselves) dangerous places in the mine where darkness was gradually solidifying into earth, where the air that men breathed grew increasingly heavy and filled their lungs with grit. Such stories were horrifying enough, but sometimes, it was said, the process inexplicably speeded up, and a tunnel would fill in behind a party of workers so swiftly they had no time to escape.
I feel that this paragraph should be moved to before "In such cruel conditions, men either lost hope and died quickly, or else grew angry and violent, lashing out in vicious rages."'s paragraph.

Where it is now, it clashes with the rest of the narrative because you've gone from the miners' overall plight to the prince's and then back again. Just my opinion though.


 
Once again, writing well out of my league - I agree with precision Calibre that this isn't info-dumpy at all - but here goes.


But rather than dying, Cuillioc felt his strength gradually returning; even the leg he had thought permanently lamed healed. Worse, his desire for life began to revive, and that was a shameful thing. That he had survived the debacle in Xanthipei was a disgrace for which his death could scarcely atone; that a Prince of Phaorax should cling to life in such degrading conditions was immeasurably worse.
I first noticed a problem with this paragraph when I found the double use of the word, worse, a bit jarring, even with the emphasis of 'immeasurably'. I was going to suggest you do something about the second appearance of the word, but I think the problem lies slightly deeper.

Let's look at the first sentence.
But rather than dying, Cuillioc felt his strength gradually returning; even the leg he had thought permanently lamed healed.
This is the reintroduction of a character from the previous book. Until this sentence, we have had a (fine) description of the physical circumstances. At this point, you seem to want to point out that Cuillioc does not wish to survive, but it is first presented as a fact, that he is not dying. That he wishes not to live is at first implied, by But, and then reinforced by the Worse at the beginning of the next sentence. If the reader was being gently led to the realisation of that Cuillioc's hopes are in not surviving, you may, with some rewording, get away with it. However, as the ending of the paragraph leaves no doubt, why not be more upfront?

To lead in to my suggested revision with its bare prose - you'll have to wave you magic wand over it - here's the last sentence of the preceeding paragraph:
It was work for men who had themselves lost hope.

So here goes:
[...] It was work for men who had themselves lost hope; men, he was shamed to admit, like him.

In death, he might have atoned, in some small part, for the disgrace of surviving the debacle in Xanthipe. That hope, once so solid, was turning to air. His strength was gradually returning; even the leg he had thought permanently lamed had healed. His desire for life had begun to revive. As had his pride; a Prince of Phaorax should not be clinging to life in such degrading conditions.


The other paragraph with which I had a slight problem was the following:
He realized one day that the guards, though brutal to all, and profane and quarrelsome even among themselves, were slower to punish him than the other slaves, that his punishments, however cruel, were invariably lighter than those meted out to the rest. By that time, others had also recognized this apparent favoritism, and out of a natural resentment excluded him from their rough fellowship. Cuillioc made no attempt to enlighten them. Even had they known the truth—that Lord Vaz kept him alive only so that he might some day soon be summoned back to Persit for more questions, more threats, more beatings—it would not have made a difference.
I think its the segueing of a realisation into a truth that jars.

Luckily (for me) the soltion is relatively easy:
Even had they known the truth that Lord Vaz kept him alive only so that he might some day soon be summoned back to Persit for more questions, more threats, more beatings, it would not have made a difference.
 
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As before, I'm not sure what I'm thinking, trying to critique a professional, but here goes.

I had no problem with this being all exposition. I think this route is a much better way to go than having lengthy dialogue scenes with characters who (presumably) have no other part to play, and it did serve to reinforce his isolation. However, I was brought of the story, as PC appears to have been, by the switch from specific to general and back again. I'd agree with the suggestion of moving the "Miles and miles of tunnels" paragraph. I think I'd go further, though. Would it be possible to start general, with the plight of miners in the mines overall, and only then close in on Cuillioc, so that we establish how terrible the life is, and then focus on this one man? For readers who know him, the impact of finding out that he is here only after we know how dreadful the conditions are, must surely be worse than seeing him in the first paragraph. And for those of us who don't know him, we feel for him on sight if we know what he is going through.

I never actively thought it was info-dumpy, but once or twice I found myself wondering "why are you telling me this now?". Some of it, I think, arises from the specific to general issue -- eg the two sentences starting with "Other slaves gathered up the loose chunks...". I can see why the whole process needs explanation, but it jarred for me coming where it did, immediately after hearing of Cuillioc's plight. Very minor points were things like calling him "Prince Cuillioc" on first seeing him -- unless there's another man with the same name, do we need to know he's a prince at that point? Those who know him will know without being told, those of us who don't will have a separate frisson of horror when you make it clear later with the Prince of Phaorax line.

For myself, I felt at a kind of a distance from it all. It's always difficult to immerse oneself in something only 1000 words long, and I don't have the advantage of knowing this world and these people, but I felt I was watching the scene: a well designed, well crafted scene, but I was a passive viewer nonetheless. Your writing is so smooth, and so elegant, for me it didn't quite convey the brutality and horror here. And, as you know, I'm more a deep POV writer, and it occurred to me this is also what I'm missing. I'm peering over Cuillioc's shoulder at his work, but I'm not feeling the agony in his shoulder and back and arms, his desperation and his fear, his self-disgust and remorse. But this is clearly your style, and it manifestly works for you and your readers, so that's probably not something to worry about.

One last thing, the passage of time seemed a bit odd to me. When we start he appears to have just arrived, as he's still suffering from an earlier illness; half way through he feels his strength returning, and at the end -- after weeks or possibly months** -- he is pushed out. Yet it's all written in the simple past, as if it's all in the same short period. Perhaps using past perfect for the beginning bit might help to convey time passing?

** you actually refer to "days and week" [typo for weeks?] but days it surely can't be -- it would take days to get over a debilitating illness and beatings even if properly convalescing. In these conditions, it's surely inconceivable he could recover so quickly, so it must be weeks and more.

Hope that helps a little bit.
 
I didn't think there was too much info dumping either. However, I did enjoy reading it despite the graveness.

It certainly is written in a completely different way to your first book Teresa but just as enjoyable!
 
As before all the usual caveats etc.

This is a different character, in circumstances quite different from the last excerpt. Less color and magic, and more grit. This will be the first time that readers will be seeing this character since the previous book, so the excerpt, which is the beginning of a chapter, starts with a little bit of recap to remind readers of his situation.

There is one potential problem that I would particularly like feedback about.

I wonder if this reads too much like an info-dump, because it is one big expository lump with no dialogue and no scenes of interaction with other characters. However, he is supposed to be isolated much of the time and I really want to get that across, and also I am reluctant to make up conversations and interactions that don't do anything to advance the plot, just for the sake of breaking this up.

But maybe I have to.

On the other hand, if I simply decide to cut it down, it may seem like I am trivializing the horrors of his particular situation. He is an important character, and I don't want to minimize the consequences of the actions (shown in the previous book) that brought him here.

Nevertheless, it may need to be cut.

Again, this is book three, names can't be changed, and it's too late to alter my style, even if I decided it was desirable.

But before I begin, a long explanation of two things that are barely mentioned in the excerpt. Just so that you don't trip over them. The part about darkness solidifying into earth is a reference to natural (which from our point of view would be magical) laws in the universe of this book, which were already mentioned in a previous volume. Basically, there are eight elements. The inanimate elements: darkness, light, air, and mist. And a higher form of each of these, which are the animate elements: the classical earth, fire, wind, and water. Earth is animate darkness. There is a certain amount of natural transmutation going on. Just as mist can condense into water, darkness can condense into earth, and so forth. As in medieval alchemy, metals grow inside the matrix of the earth.

And after all this ... finally we come to the excerpt itself.



In the dark of the (Trying to avoid the use of 'dark' given it's quality above - plus even if the mine was lit by fluorescent lights there would still be no concept of day and night) mine there was neither day nor night, only long cycles of grindingly (grind to me suggests machinery whereas I assume the men are using chisel and hammers "jarring" maybe?) hard labor under the lash of pitiless overseers, punctuated by brief periods of mind-numbed rest. Prince Cuillioc, still weakened by his long illness, (wouldn't he have recovered if he had been convalescing and if he had been shipped of to the mine would he have been allowed to 'rest' if his captors didn't care if he lived or died) bruised and limping after the beatings he had suffered as Lord Vaz’s prisoner in Persit, believed he would find a swift release in death.

The life of a mine slave was brutally hard: working with pick and mallet, (pick and shovel) (those tools don't work together) . or chiseling the silver ore from the earth, breathing in the dust of metals (while all the time breathing in the dust ) and minerals. In the beginning, the Prince worked with three or four other men at the same face, in the glare of a pine torch held by one of the guards (I can't see gaurds taking on this task when there a perfectly good slaves lounging around - children maybe?). Where the rock was hardest, men worked in pairs, one holding the gad and one the mallet. (I would have thought if they had iron hammers they would make more impression on rock unless there is a gas risk which was the case in say, coal mines )

Swinging the hammer caused such a burn to his muscles, Cuillioc felt a weary sense of relief whenever the time came to switch places, though holding the chisel was by far the more dangerous task. Other slaves gathered up the loose chunks of ore in leather bags and dragged them along the tunnel to the base of a ladder. There, two more men put the ore into baskets and handed them up with much backbreaking effort to other men at the top. (There's a slight problem here IMO. There must be more than one 'team' working in the mine. It's unrealistic to suppose they would each have their own lifting crew and surely some form of pulley system is used in even the most primitive of mines if only for efficiency)

Sometimes there came a warning rumble; then a jolt (shudder) passed through the entire mine. The slaves paused in their work to listen. No one ran, because no one knew exactly where disaster would strike. All around him, Cuillioc could hear men babbling out prayers to the gods that they worshipped. He simply stood silent, the sweat on his body turning cold. Then somewhere a ceiling fell with a crash, burying fifty or a hundred men. Much later, when the earth had settled, a party of slaves would be detailed to dig a new tunnel, to get at the vein from another angle. (nice bit of callousness there - I like it, but you could add the moans of the near dead and dying being ignored or some such for extra effect)

In such cruel conditions, men either lost hope and died quickly, or else grew angry and violent, lashing out in vicious rages. But if a man did not perish by misadventure, or his fellow slaves did not murder him, the dust would, eventually did, for the matrix in which the silver developed was full of poisons, which they all he breathed in with every gasping breath. The overseers wore masks and rarely approached too closely while the work was in progress, and so to avoid breathing in the deadly particles. Yet rumor had it that they, too, lived shortened lives, and died an ugly death(s). It was work for men who had themselves lost hope.

But rather than dying, Cuillioc felt his strength gradually returning; even the leg he had thought permanently lamed healed. Worse, his desire for life began to revive, and that was a shameful thing. That he had survived the debacle in Xanthipei was a disgrace for which his death could scarcely atone; that a Prince of Phaorax should cling to life in such degrading conditions was immeasurably worse.

He realized one day that the guards, though brutal to all, and profane and quarrelsome even among themselves, were slower to punish him than the other slaves, that his punishments, however cruel, were invariably lighter than those meted out to the rest. By that time, others had also recognized this apparent favoritism, and out of a natural resentment excluded him from their rough fellowship. Cuillioc made no attempt to enlighten them. Even had they known the truth—that Lord Vaz kept him alive only so that he might some day soon be summoned back to Persit for more questions, more threats, more beatings—it would not have made a difference.

Miles and miles of tunnels riddled the mountain overhead, but the miners delved ever deeper, following wherever the richest veins led them. Sometimes they broke through into a natural cavern, a vast space of black air under the earth. There (these) were (Cuillioc gathered from hearing the other men speak among themselves) dangerous places in the mine where darkness was gradually solidifying into earth, where the air that men breathed grew increasingly heavy and filled their lungs with grit. Such stories were horrifying enough, but sometimes, it was said, the process inexplicably speeded up, and a tunnel would fill in behind a party of workers so swiftly they had no time to escape.

When it came time to rest, he and his fellow slaves were shackled in pairs and allowed a brief period of sleep, sometimes (usually) in the utter dark of the mine, or if they were lucky, more often by the flickering light of distant torches, while another party of men continued to work further down the same tunnel. Yet for Cuillioc sleep was not always possible, as exhaustion competed with the pain of strained muscles when the labor had been particularly arduous. How many days and week(s) passed in this way he had no way of counting.

At last, just as he had expected, Lord Vaz sent for him. Guards hustled him up a series of ladders, then out through the entrance of the mine, into a biting wind. Dazzled by the light, he covered his eyes against the aching brilliance of a winter day. They tossed him into a wagon that transported him across the miles to Persit, still in his dirt and his chains.

No problem at all with info dump aspects - It gives depth and feel to the conditions and highlights the brutality metered out to those not in favour with the powers that be.

I think they would all be permitted to wear masks, though the overseer's may be more effective. Even slaves are expensive to replace and without a mask they would die quickly, a needless waste for the sake of a bit of cloth.

Liked it

Hope I helped

TEiN
 
Ok, not read the other comments yet, but I actually read all of this, Teresa, and I can't usually manage it for pieces like this where there's no dialogue! So you've held the attention of someone with the attention span of a... something with a really small attention span. A sparrow or something.

The only bit I stumbled over was the 'lamed healed' bit. I think it's because of the two words ending in 'ed.' But I don't think you can change that.

Also, sometimes I felt like the camera (like we're watching a film, sort of) zoomed out, then zoomed back in on your character. If that makes sense? I liked the bit about the cave roof falling in, and his breaking out in a cold sweat cos I felt like we were with him. Then I felt like we zoomed out a bit again.
 
Well, Princess, it certainly felt info-dumpy and I only have to reflect what The Judge says as in you go on and on explaining the work conditions in the mine, while you leave the reader to wanting to feel his pain.

I too have extraordinarily long expository pieces in my second book, but where you fly as a blind cave-bat in the darkness, I dive into the character and let him or her to do the narrative. Then again, as you say, this a style issue, and you are not prepared to change the perspective and zoom in as we would.

The another thing is that as The Judge said, there are quite many places, where the reader gets to think, why are you telling me all this? why don't you get on with it? And I think TJ, Ursa and TEIN are pointing in right direction, so I don't have to break it up. Guess, you can say, you got lucky there. ;)


PS. Thank you for allowing us to see the problems you're facing, and learn from them. Thank you.
 
If I might be brutal, I do wonder what the point of the section is, as it's written. As an introduction to a longer section about the prince's time in the mines it could work, but if we just get these thousand words in the mines and then go back to Persit, I'm not sure about it. As others have pointed out, there isn't enough space, and we don't get close enough in, to share his experience; and that being so, what are we meant to take from it? What in it is essential to the story?

You suggest this scene is necessary to show the harsh consequences of his previous actions, but it doesn't read like that, because we don't share his suffering. He even gets special treatment and his injuries heal, rather than get worse, so it doesn't seem as though he suffers much at all. And if the scene is to show the consequences of what came before, it should still have consequences itself if it's to be a valid part of the story, surely? As it stands, nothing seems likely to come of it; it's merely an interlude. If something is to come of it later, then I think you might need to hint at it here.

The only specific point about info-dumpiness that no one else has mentioned is that the beginning of the second para very much reads as though it might be the start of a long omniscient-style infodump. It doesn't turn into one, but it was enough to put me on my guard (though that might have been from reading your questions at the top).

It's very well written (of course) but I just wonder if you might need to think about what it's actually meant to achieve.
 
Well, HB, you have to remember that this is only a small excerpt of this story and I'm sure what comes previously will build up to Cuillioc's situation and help explain things better rather than hang us over a cliff about the whole thing.


I would have to say keep it as it is, maybe look over for minor errors, but, my eyes aren't good enough to catch such things anymore.
 
Okay, I didn't comment on the first piece because I thought everything I would have said had already been covered, but have a couple of things that feel I could add about his one - hopefully before someone else says it better than me...

The essence of this piece is to show Cuillioc in very reduced circumstances, and to show the horror and degredation in the mines, yes? Since the narrator is telling us most of the information, I felt a little detached from Cuillioc, because the background descriptive passages kept taking me away from him. If this is in keeping with the rest of the book, then it would jar if the style suddenly changed, but I'm wondering if it couldn't be done with more focus on Cuillioc, and allow his situation to tell us of the horror, rather than it being laid out in what has happened in the past.

For instance:
Sometimes there came a warning rumble; then a jolt passed through the entire mine. The slaves paused in their work to listen. No one ran, because no one knew exactly where disaster would strike. All around him, Cuillioc could hear men babbling out prayers to the gods that they worshipped. He simply stood silent, the sweat on his body turning cold. Then somewhere a ceiling fell with a crash, burying fifty or a hundred men. Much later, when the earth had settled, a party of slaves would be detailed to dig a new tunnel, to get at the vein from another angle.

It's a strange mix of tenses and stories: On the one hand you start -'sometimes there came a warning rumble' and it is obviously an ocurrence that has happened a number of times. But then you switch into 'All around him, Cuillioc could hear men babbling out prayers' jolting us into the present and Cuillioc's pov. Has this happened to Cuillioc every time the ceiling fell in? (and personally, I'd say 'a tunnel collapsed' - I always think of ceilings as constructed thingys in houses) And are fifty or a hundred men always buried? Seems a somewhat incongrously detached way to try to show some horror.

And incidentally, when a mining tunnel collapses, the rumble happens from the noise of the collapse, not before it. There's a terrible grinding as the rock plates shift on each other, like giants grinding their teeth, and then the tunnel falls. It can actually squeal very loudly (imagine two blackboards sandwiched together with a metal gauntlet caught between them as they slide over each other...)

So when you add this:

In such cruel conditions, men either lost hope and died quickly, or else grew angry and violent, lashing out in vicious rages. But if a man did not perish by misadventure, or his fellow slaves did not murder him, the dust eventually did, for the matrix in which the silver developed was full of poisons, which he breathed in with every gasping breath. The overseers wore masks and rarely approached too closely while the work was in progress, to avoid breathing in the deadly particles. Yet rumor had it that they, too, lived shortened lives, and died an ugly death. It was work for men who had themselves lost hope.

it's strangely detached, just a description of what has become generalizations, rather then the true horror of what Cuilllion is undergoing. If you worry that it's too info-dumpy, then I'd agree with you. If you lost this paragraph above, what would you lose from Cuillions story?

I feel the whole thing could be written in close pov from Cuillion, which would show the reader the horror, the pain, the hopelessness, and we'd live it. At the moment it's just too detached from him.

So... (takes deep breath)... what if it went something like this?: I've written it with no speech, because you have, but you could easily do this with some words spoken, especially when the guy loses it after the cave-in...

In the dark of the mine there was neither day nor night, and Cuillioc had no way of knowing how long he'd been been down there. At first, weakened by his long illness, bruised and limping after the beatings, he believed he would find a swift release in death. Now he knew different.

He swung the hammer, and his muscles burned with the effort. The shout came and Cuillioc felt a weary sense of relief. It was time to switch places. He handed the hammer to Big John, and took the chisel. He'd seen men killed by the wild swing of a tired man and he leaned back as far as he could. The hammer slammed into the head of the chisel. The shock hurt his hands, but it was a true blow, and the chisel sank an inch into the rock.

As Big John drew the hammer back, they both heard it. The awful grinding froze them in place. No one ran. There was nowhere to go. Cuillioc heard men babbling prayers, and the sweat on his body turned cold. The grinding rose in pitch and he heard the rumble as a tunnel collapsed somewhere. But not here. A moment of silence passed, and Cuillioc prayed for the souls of those who would have died in the cave-in. (If that's in character... if not, then continue with) The pleading prayers turned to thanks for their deliverance.

A sudden scream erupted further down the tunnel. A slave turned on those around him, lashing out with feet and fists. He shrieked incoherently, his mind shattered. A guard reached out for him and the dry crack of his neck carried easily to Cuillioc. He turned away and nodded to Big John. John hefted the hammer, but a coughing spasm took him. Cuillioc took the hammer from him and pounded John's back. The coughing fits were becoming more frequent, and this time he brought up blood mixed with the dust and grime. John spat it out and took the hammer back. Cuillioc knew it wouldn't be long before he had a new partner.

But even in this hell-hole (or this world's equivalent) Cuillioc's strength had gradually returned; even the leg he had thought permanently lame had healed. And there was something else: the guards were slower to punish him than the other slaves. His punishments, however cruel, were invariably lighter than those meted out to the others. He understood he was being kept alive. He assmed it was to prolong his death.

The razor lash of a whip across his back brought him out of his reverie. An overseer and two guards stood over him. They all wore breathing masks and he did not resist as they chained him. They dragged him up through the levels. The bright sunshine of a winter's day nearly blinded him. The guards threw him in the back of a wagon, and it left immediately.

Okay, I sort-of copied your style, by not revealing too much of his inner feelings and thoughts, his experience of pain and suffering. But I've left out a lot of what seemed irrelevent to Cuillioc and his character arc.

Wotjer reckon?

Hope it helps!!
 
I think it was about the right length, and I liked the atmosphere it created. Just a few random comments:

'Sometimes there came a warning rumble; then a jolt passed through the entire mine...' - I agree with Boneman that the tenses in this paragraph were a bit strange - should it be 'then a jolt would pass through the entire mine', etc?

'or his fellow slaves did not murder him' - would the overseers let this kind of thing go on? They obviously don't care about the slaves, but regular murder would deplete their workforce.

'There were (Cuillioc gathered from hearing the other men speak among themselves) dangerous places in the mine' - the brackets jarred a bit for me, perhaps 'One day Cuillioc overheard the other men talking about dangerous places in the mine'?

Also, depending on what the next paragraph is after the last one, the sudden transition from mine to elsewhere could be a bit sudden.

B
 
Thanks for your comments, everyone.

TEIN, I did research on early mining, and the details you pointed out as wrong are things that specifically turned up in that research. You must be thinking about a different period or a different kind of mining. There is more than one tunnel with more than one party of men at work, so I'll have to see how it was that I failed to make that clear and try to fix it.

Boneman, thanks for that about the collapsing tunnel. I didn't find any descriptions of that happening so I used my imagination. However, it is supposed to be an earthquake that causes the collapse (hence the rumble), so would that work or not?

What it all means in terms of the rest of the book, what Cuillioc knows and how he knows it, whether readers would know if he is there or not before I say so ... all these are things that will already be known to readers of the previous volumes, and I can't really imagine that there will be more than the tiniest handful of people picking up a book three without reading one and two. (Besides, there will be a synopsis.) Which is why I didn't ask about those aspects, though I still appreciate that you've all taken the time to think about them.

When last seen in the previous book Cuillioc was on his way to the mine. Lord Vaz said he was sending him there to break his will, so that he would be more cooperative in answering his questions. Cuillioc isn't broken and he can't give the answers that Vaz wants anyway, so he'll be sent back. This is, then, the introduction to a long interlude in the mines (during which Cuillioc goes deeper and deeper).

Here are the issues I face: On the one hand, as you know, I didn't want it to sound info-dumpy. Most of the time I do write in a close third person viewpoint, though almost always at the beginning of chapters and sometimes after a scene break, I will briefly set the scene in omniscient. And here, Cuillioc is depressed, dazed, and therefore more than a little detached, so I want to reflect that. (But it is always a problem when a character is detached, because readers may detach, too.) And quite a bit of time passes, so I have to give a sense of that, rather than just dumping him in the mine for a paragraph or two, and then sending him to Persit for a bit. I thought it would be more interesting for readers to read about how the mine works than to fill that time describing over and over what Cuillioc is feeling. There isn't a lot of variety in what he would be feeling, and I don't want readers to come away with the impression that he is wallowing in self-pity. But I certainly don't want to give the impression that he isn't suffering, or that the guards are treating him well, because they aren't. (I did say that his punishments are cruel, just not as bad as the other slaves, and it isn't a kindness.)

I do need to keep the passage of time as vague as possible, since there is no way for him to tell whether the periods of work and rest correspond to actual days and nights (they don't), and every day is the same, and he is ill much of the time, and depressed as I said. I know from experience how some of these factors can screw up your time sense. Days, weeks, months, become muddled. (Of course in my case age and approaching senility are factors, too. On the other hand, nobody is keeping me in a dark cave.)

So I have to balance all that, and need to know if there really is a perfect solution, or whether the best I can do in terms of some of these things is choose a lesser evil.
 
A difficult one, then.

I think for me, personally, I'd still go the general route for a paragraph or two and then bring Cuillioc in, because I did find the back and forth between general and specific so unsettling. I can appreciate that this might be the effect you're after, but it didn't occur to me that this was a reflection of his mental state. If you want to keep that, perhaps you need to show it as coming from him eg (only you'd write it better, of course) "His mind fractured. He remembered scenes, but he had no way of knowing what came first." I think if you zoomed in and out after that, particularly if you repeated something about his mental state, then it would be a choppiness we'd associate with him.

As for the time, "Days passed, or it might have been weeks, and his leg began to heal" and then a bit later "More weeks, or it might only have been days" -- something like that, do you think?

I certainly would want to know how the mine works, not simply its effect on him, so the information you've given doesn't seem too much for me. In fact, something that I thought after I posted earlier was that possibly it wasn't long enough, eg we know nothing of the food, the sleeping arrangements, the medical care he might have had (how has he got better if he's had none?) but if you're returning here then you will want to hold some detail back, I imagine. I do think if he is ill you need to make more of it, though, because it is important, and I really got no feel of that.
 
For me, the perfect solution would be for something to happen to him in the mine, something either of immediate relevance or which will become relevant later on, which will allow you to stage an actual scene there, rather than describe it. I know you don't want to invent something solely to fulfil this purpose, complicating your plot to no other benefit, but I do think the section needs a focus, some specific hook to hang all the interesting details on. This is just a personal view, though.
 
He's really just suffering the after effects of a long and serious illness, which was described in detail in the previous books. He's at that stage where the body recovers on its own. Plus, if nothing else, he's getting a lot of exercise to make up for that weakness you feel after lying in bed for a long time.

Depression is hard to describe, at least the kind of depression I mean. It's not really something as dramatic as your mind fracturing, and you don't notice that you aren't remembering things until you have a reason to try and remember them. In his case, he really doesn't. It's like you are one or two steps removed from everything. If I could have made him angry instead, that would have worked better, but it wouldn't follow the logic of everything I've established before. (Ah, what nets we weave for ourselves!)

And yes, I do give more attention to things like food and sleeping arrangements a bit later. In an earlier version I did describe them near the beginning, but decided to move them a little further on where I could incorporate them into the action.

I'll probably rearrange some of the paragraphs as suggested to clear up the POV problem, or make it more obvious that some of the things that sound like omniscient are his general impressions of what is happening around him, things he observes from his position of mental detachment. A person can be so deeply depressed that they no longer function, but there are other stages (and he goes through several of them in this book) where you can process information and eventually come to logical conclusions, it just takes much longer.

HareBrain, things do happen to him in the mine, and some are very significant. But just not in that first bit I posted here. For one thing, he's being ostracized and he's not eager to communicate anyway. If the consensus is to cut it, I would rather do that then make up scenes that really won't matter in the end. That would be my last resort. I am, as I said at the beginning, giving that some consideration, but I won't do it unless there is no better solution.
 
If it's of any help, it's been proven that people who are clinically depressed do see things quite literally in greyer tones than people in a more healthy state of mind, their brains don't process colours in the same fashion. I noticed there was no sensory information given in the piece, beyond obvious sight and sound, so I imagine you already have picked up on that anyway.

Going back a bit, to your comment about self-pity, I don't think that's likely to be a problem is you allow a bit more of his suffering to be shown, and I think getting a bit more of that in there would help. But I am having a bit of difficulty with the idea that terrible living conditions + random acts of violence + (presumably) poor food + back-breaking, dangerous work + no medical attention + complete lack of hope + depressive illness = an ability to recover from previous ill-health. The POWs held by the Japanese in WWII come to mind in this respect. Doubtless you have it all under control, however.
 
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