psychoanalysis and ASOIaF

[Eulalia]

GRRM uses literary style and not differential diagnostic criteria (thank goodness or the books would be dull). Not sure if my other thread went through.

But I'll start a list of pseudo psychoanalysis.


Cersei Lannister--paranoid, schizoid, borderline or narcissistic personality, homocidal
Tyrion Lannister--addictive personality(alchohol, sex, codependent), Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, high IQ, impulsivity
Tywin Lannister--sociopath
Sandor Clegane--phobic(fire), anti-social personality
Gregor Clegane--psychopathic, homocidal
Roose Bolton--sociopath
Randall Tarly--sociopath
Arya Stark--oppositional personality, multiple personality disorder
Sansa Stark--complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, anxiety disorder
Bran Stark--depressed, dissociative personality
Bienne of Tarth--transvestite, gender identification not otherwise specified
Petyr Baelish--narcissist personality, capitalist
Theon Greyjoy--narcissistic personality, PTSD
Aeys--completely nuts, dead, can't ask re: auditory hallucinations

??

 

[The Imp]

I think you could add the sociopath tag to many that you have listed (especially Littlefinger and probably Cersei)and not be far off

I'm not convinced that Arya fits into an MPD diagnosis, and a glaring omission is JOffrey, who would fit well into the sociopath catagory if not for being a child.

 

[soulsinging]

Capitalist is a personality disorder? The US is screwed

 

[Tragedy]

I can safely say, your wrong by DSM standards.

I personally do not think Cersei has any PD, she seems rather self assured in GoT and even somewhat in CoK/SoS. So it cant be a personality disorder.

And, I am shocked and appalled that you have not even bothered list Dany who has a clear cut case of schizophrenia. The bizarre delusion that she actually is a dragon, and that Westeros belongs to her...

 

[Eulalia]

I seem to have "r" avoidance, and Pretty Darn Awful editing, spelling, grammar and keyboarding skills, especially when I am on a roll and not being paid. I also need new glasses!

Agreed Imp, Joffrey was a sociopath, and was particularly sadistic compared to the others. Cersei still loves her children (in a sick way) and still seems attached to other people more than the other sociopaths. Oh and I forgot Lysa--bipolar and/or borderline?

Petyr had attachments in his youth, and maybe now to some extent. Could be a sociopath. In my opinion, capitalism, religion, war (usually capitalism induced) and other mass activities seem to allow some people who would not personally harm an individual, to harm other people (never mind animals) on a mass scale. (Kenny Lay comes to mind) Don't know how anyone who could read, say, Ayn Rand, actually have empathy for other people, and think that those ideas are gospell. Interesting, but not a wonderful life philosophy.

Arya originally had some minor oppositional defiant "disorder", otherwise known as non conformity and independance. She did have a lot of empathy for others (Micah, and ?Weasel? the little girl who didn't speak as examples) She now seems to be compartmentalizing and in extreme, I think she could develop MPD as sequelae to PTSD. Or she is developing sociopathy.

I don't think GRRM thinks this way, and the DSM constructs are artificial constructs anyway, best-fit labels pasted over complex humans. Some disorders are more genetic in origin, a problem as demonstrated by the Targs. But hey? GRRM writes about madness as a writer, not as a psychiatrist. Or there would be more people hearing voices. He has convincing masterpiece character portrayals, don't you think?

Tragedy, Cersei could have problems on more than one axis. I'd be betting on narcissistic personality at the very least, myself.

Dany, I would say, does not have clear cut schizophrenia. But you can make a good case for it, and time will tell. When she starts to talk about having the space aliens from the dog star giving her orders to put paper bags on people's heads to stop the Lannisters from controlling their thought processes, or something of that nature, I would be more sure.

 

[TK-421]

Partly, been there, partly done that:

Psychoanalysis: The Stark Truth

Psychoanalysis: The Lannister Pride

 

[soulsinging]

Petyr had attachments in his youth, and maybe now to some extent. Could be a sociopath. In my opinion, capitalism, religion, war (usually capitalism induced) and other mass activities seem to allow some people who would not personally harm an individual, to harm other people (never mind animals) on a mass scale. (Kenny Lay comes to mind) Don't know how anyone who could read, say, Ayn Rand, actually have empathy for other people, and think that those ideas are gospell. Interesting, but not a wonderful life philosophy.

I'm not denying any of that, but since you said this was a DSM based thing I was wondering if capitalism got added to the DSM as a personality disorder and when? Seems odd to characterize a political/economic theory as a personality disorder.

 

[Eulalia]

Unconventional, Soulsinging, it is true, but it bears thinking about, I believe. Are soldiers serial killers? Are very religious people delusional? I also think it is legitimate to pop something unexpected in a piece of writing. It is very nice not to be writing a clinical report.

 

[Tragedy]

I don't think GRRM thinks this way, and the DSM constructs are artificial constructs anyway, best-fit labels pasted over complex humans. Some disorders are more genetic in origin, a problem as demonstrated by the Targs. But hey? GRRM writes about madness as a writer, not as a psychiatrist. Or there would be more people hearing voices. He has convincing masterpiece character portrayals, don't you think?

I dont think he even attempts to bring mental disease into it at all. Its not a book, but The Sopranos series had a major theme of mental disease and a big part of it was questioning if Tony had ASPD disorder or not.

I wouldnt even label Joffrey as anti social. AS's are more direct with their behavior and do act the normal person. Joffrey is loud and defiant and does not fit the bill. Sure, he displays some traits (he is also too young by DSM definitions) but he is not a fully blown AS.

Tragedy, Cersei could have problems on more than one axis. I'd be betting on narcissistic personality at the very least, myself.

NPD. Possibly, but she may just not have enough of the symptoms. Once again, expressing traits, but not a full affliction. And traits ARE common in normal people.

Dany, I would say, does not have clear cut schizophrenia. But you can make a good case for it, and time will tell. When she starts to talk about having the space aliens from the dog star giving her orders to put paper bags on people's heads to stop the Lannisters from controlling their thought processes, or something of that nature, I would be more sure.

She literally believes she is the Queen of Westeros. She does not speak it in any other sense than that. She shares and carries the delusion her brother once had. Thats delusional disorder right there. And no longer she thinks "I am the dragons blood, I am a dragon" - it is just there. She may actually believe this. This is a bizarre delusion. That = schizophrenia.

 

[Eulalia]

Well, let's give Joffrey the label "conduct disorder", then.

I do think Cersei is fully afflicted of something...whoa. She has some form of paranoia as well.

I think you can definitely make a case for Dany being delusional. However, she thinks that she is Queen of Westeros, not Queen of the bullfrogs. Other people in this world support her world vision, even such reliable people as Barristan Selmy. Metaphorically, she has the blood of the dragons, and she even caused three "actual" dragons to be hatched and she even suckled them. Her thinking processes and speech seem fairly organized. I would say that for her age, experience and environment, she is functioning very well. In truth, though, she will be Mad, if GRRM decides that she is so.

Theon shows, some remorse, emotional pain and regret. He was thought to be too soft to be Ironborn. So he is maybe not completly sociopathic. Close.

GRRM's world is chaotic, war filled and full of severe trauma. It has magic ice walls, dragons, soothsayers, and zombies. I'm not sure how certain personal traits are inherited.

Giving real people a diagnosis involves a certain amount of selective proof, because these things are not concrete or are even necessarily permanent or even consistent. I've had disagreements with people about whether kids were autistic or not, and you might think that it would be clear cut. Not so much as you would think. Giving fictional characters these diagnoses, is fictional.

 

[The Imp]

She literally believes she is the Queen of Westeros. She does not speak it in any other sense than that. She shares and carries the delusion her brother once had. Thats delusional disorder right there. And no longer she thinks "I am the dragons blood, I am a dragon" - it is just there. She may actually believe this. This is a bizarre delusion. That = schizophrenia.

She thionks she's the RIGHTFUL Queen. SHe believe's that Robert the Usurper stole the Kingdom from her family, and that she needs to fight to win it back. Since this is true, there's nothing delusional about acting as a Queen in exile while she builds strength so that she can eventually take what was stolen from her brother, and by bloodline, her. Say what you will about Viserys, he was the rightful king, unless there's another Targ heir flotaing around (cough) IMO Dany is one of the sanest people in the series, certainly not delusional.

 

[Mesanna]

I certainly don't consider Dany to be mad or delusional. I don't think she's particularly likeable, but that's just me!

Cersei, on the other hand, I believe definitely has issues. Now I'm no psychologist, so take my opinion here with a pinch of salt, but I tend to think when someone indulges in what society would consider abnormal behaviour, there's usually a reason (e.g. child abusers were frequently abused themselves). I find myself wondering what life was like for Cersei and Jaime as kids at Casterly Rock. Did they turn to each other because the Targs made incest acceptable, or was there more to it?

I think that the Rock may have been a cold, unfriendly place, dominated by the repressed Tywin Lannister. I can see them perhaps being a little afraid of their father and turning to each other for comfort, especially after their mother died. What may have started off as innocent and childish, developed into something more because there was no love to be found elsewhere. Jaime probably didn't suffer so badly, as he carried his father's hopes, but Cersei would have lacked control over her life, been excluded from anything important, and made to feel worthless because she was female.

This is the woman who killed her friend after hearing the prophecy about her life. What turns a young woman into a killer? The damage must have been done during her childhood at Casterly Rock.

 

[southron sword]

I'm reading about how some people think Dany is mad and how some people think she isn't. I was thinking, we only see things from her POV. Everything that happens is through her. She wouldnt think she was crazy would she? In Dance I'm assuming we will see Dany from a different POV. How will these other characters view her? She may be crazy afterall....

 

[The Imp]

I'm reading about how some people think Dany is mad and how some people think she isn't. I was thinking, we only see things from her POV. Everything that happens is through her. She wouldn't think she was crazy would she? In Dance I'm assuming we will see Dany from a different POV. How will these other characters view her? She may be crazy afterall....

We know that her claim to the Iron Throne is rightful. Other than thinking she's the Queen of Westeros, which she actually is by birth, what has she done that even remotely places her in the "crazy" category? She makes good decisions, shows compassion for others, plans well, is able to reality test well, recognizes her limitations, etc. The whole point of the story IS that Day has a claim. At least that's one of the main points. Robert thought her claim was legitimate enough to order her killed.

I just don't get where this talk of her being mad comes from. Hypothetically, what would happen if everyone gets to Meereen and finds her to be certifiable? Does everyone follow a crazy person in her quest to invade Westeros? That's going to be a lot of Sancho Panzas running around

 

[Eulalia]

Just to play devil's advocate. If you take things out of context, Dany smothered her husband, had Mirri killed, walked into fire, led her rag tag followers into the desert, took mind altering substances, nurses dragons, and rides around on a horse liberating slaves. She wants to conquor another country, and claim her birthright, (which was well and truly lost) while not presently having the resources. Clearly she has a messianic complex.

I would say the most crazy thing that she has done is not to ask more questions about her father. But the plot depends on her not digging too deeply, and it is out of character.

Don't many conquorers have a touch of overconfidence and a little crazy? Alexander the Great thought he was the son of Zeus. It didn't work very well when he took a lot of battle injuries, tried to conquor India during the monsoon, and turned against his own cultural values, but it worked out pretty well, while his best generals were helping him.

 

[C Of K]

You've got to be a little crazy just to seek the iron throne. King's Landing is a pit of vipers. No wonder Craster chose to live within reach of the Others rather than within reach of Littlefinger, Varys, and the like.

Eating that heart would have made me crazy. I felt so bad for Dany during that scene. Yuck!

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Well, whether Alexander actually thought he was the son of Ammon-Zeus is not provable either way, but the more reasonable and supported suggestion is that he was just seeking religious authority to legitimize his conquests.

I think the idea of Dany being mad is really just a veil for personal dislike of the character and perhaps a dislike of the idea of the return of the old guard, which Dany represents by her context and her own story.

Besides which, you can't call someone in Westeros mad for believing they are the mother to dragons when they actually did hatch dragons out of their shells and nurse them.

I think you're misinterpreting, either accidentally or in order to support your view, Dany's conception of herself as a dragon, as in a Targaryen, as a literal belief that she is physically and indeed a dragon.

I think, and this is lampshaded in the books themselves by their trader who talks to Davos about the foolish Westerosi lords, that her idea of herself as a Dragon is just the product of the heraldric world she lives in. The other characters talk about themselves as lions and wolves and hounds and such, but they don't literally believe themselves to be those animals. They're like mascots of your favorite team. Dany just happens to have her symbols that much closer and that much more fantastic, and she's more in need of an identity to cling to than most. It's her entire purpose now.

Most 13 year old girls would have just died or drifted after what she's been through, but she found a purpose in her heritage and I think it's what kept her alive, at least her spirit.

 

[Tragedy]

Ruler by birth right or God(s) given right is a form of delusion in itself. The key difference between delusion and reality in that aspect is "I want to be King" and "I am King". Thinking something without a doubt that is not true is delusion.

On reread, I will revive this thread (which will probably have been dead for a long, long time) and point out many cases of Dany's delusion. A poster above has already pointed out probable cause for Dany's abnormal cognition.

 

[No One]

Eulalia may be right that Arya (and this could apply to a majority of the other characters) is headed to sociopathic tendencies, but I'd say it's a clear indication of the world and times she's living in.

Arya's various identities have been largely reactionary to circumstance. Sure, she may have reacted differently than others (like Sansa) would have, but she's always been prompted by the cruelties and the potential threat of those around her. Perhaps more than any other character, I think Arya has been a reflection of the world she's living in and it is, as they say, a mad, mad world.

Also, I've always had a problem with the psychoanalytical term of 'compartmentalisation'. Everyone and everything does it in some degree or other. Dress the term in a different way and I'd say it bears a striking resemblance to another word: Evolution. So unless a psychoanalyst wants to suggest that nature and everything in it is indicative of a kind of universal madness (which I could get on board with) then the term will always strike me as, well, pointless.

 

[Eulalia]

I believe that there is a kind of universal madness , No One, and we could get into ideas of "Eastern" thought. But let's say the world has Rashomon(a classic movie) tendencies.

I think I get what you mean about compartmentalisation and evolution. However, some people use this as a strategy more than others. The most extreme one that I can think of is Colonel Russell Williams, who was in the Canadian news. He was fairly high up in the Canadian Airforce, and I believe he flew the equivalent of Air Force One. He was a commander of an air base and perhaps destined to be a general. He had a wife in Ottawa and cabin on a lake. But he had a hobby that eventually led to him raping and killing women. Nobody thought anything was off, until he was caught. Other Canadians can help me out with the details.

Other people have lots of parts to their personality(in a normal way), but may be more or less "integrated" or conscious, and at the other end, there is multiple personality disorder, where one part may not actually know about the others.

I thought Alexander the Great started to believe his own press, but I don't know, of course. The idea, for the times, certainly didn't hurt his chances of having followers and having cities and armies capitulate. There was an idea also that he was invincible in battle, which I'm sure was good for morale in his own army. That lost steam when he got a lung punctured after a long run and didn't win battles in India. And his army didn't like being led through a desert where they were dying of thirst.

Lots of rulers or commanders had some form of divine right, at least in their press. Didn't Bush make remarks like this, more recently? I'm not sure where QE2 stands, though her rule is ceremonial.

I'm very interested in were GRRM takes Arya, Tyrion, Jaime, Sandor, Jon, Dany and Sansa, well aren't we all? He certainly loaded the stress onto Tyrion, till he had a breaking point. I really don't know and I like it!