psychoanalysis and ASOIaF

[The Imp]

Ruler by birth right or God(s) given right is a form of delusion in itself. The key difference between delusion and reality in that aspect is "I want to be King" and "I am King". Thinking something without a doubt that is not true is delusion.

On reread, I will revive this thread (which will probably have been dead for a long, long time) and point out many cases of Dany's delusion. A poster above has already pointed out probable cause for Dany's abnormal cognition.

In a world that believes in Kings, Queens and the right to succession by birth Dany thinking she IS the rightful Queen is no way delusional delusional. Nearly everyone in Westeros believes in this.

I've read this series at least 4 times, I'm losing track to be honest. I also have a background of working with people with major mental illnesses. IMO, Dany is not delusional, and is actually quite sane, especially considering the abuse she suffered at the hands of Viserys. I'm sure you'll be back, but it won't be a return with lots of examples of Dany being insane or delusional.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

Carl Jung would have a field day with Jojen Reed

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Ruler by birth right or God(s) given right is a form of delusion in itself. The key difference between delusion and reality in that aspect is "I want to be King" and "I am King". Thinking something without a doubt that is not true is delusion.

On reread, I will revive this thread (which will probably have been dead for a long, long time) and point out many cases of Dany's delusion. A poster above has already pointed out probable cause for Dany's abnormal cognition.

You seem to be inable to grasp the idea that these characters exist in a fantasy novel in a fantasy world, that while somewhat similar to ours, operates by different rules.

I'll be honest, your increasingly vehement insistence that Dany is insane makes you seem a little unstable.

Maybe you're one of those militant anti-Royalist crazies.

Besides which, something is only a delusion if it's outside of the accepted social conventions of a particular society at a particular time.

I question whether you truly understand what you're talking about.

 

[Tragedy]

Besides which, something is only a delusion if it's outside of the accepted social conventions of a particular society at a particular time.

Take The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins for example, in which he implies that the idea of God has been a delusion, not only for our time now, but throughout history. From an external view, it has to be delusion. Consider a cult, where all the members are of a shared delusion, from inside the cult it may be the norm, but from an external view, it is delusion.

Since you also bring up accepted social conventions, how can any character be diagnosed with anything. Even Gregor could fall within the normal range as he is a soldier, just indifferent to suffering.

Why do you think the % of mental disease is rising across the world? Is it because more people are acquiring it (dont know a better way to put it), or is it because we are better able to diagnose people with a condition?

From an external viewpoint only can you say that anyone in the series has an ailment, from their own viewpoints, everyone is normal. You cant have both.

 

[The Imp]

Take The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins for example, in which he implies that the idea of God has been a delusion, not only for our time now, but throughout history. From an external view, it has to be delusion. Consider a cult, where all the members are of a shared delusion, from inside the cult it may be the norm, but from an external view, it is delusion.

Since you also bring up accepted social conventions, how can any character be diagnosed with anything. Even Gregor could fall within the normal range as he is a soldier, just indifferent to suffering.

Why do you think the % of mental disease is rising across the world? Is it because more people are acquiring it (dont know a better way to put it), or is it because we are better able to diagnose people with a condition?

From an external viewpoint only can you say that anyone in the series has an ailment, from their own viewpoints, everyone is normal. You cant have both.

Even if everything you say is true, Dany isn't mad, even by the standards of Westeros. I could probably make a better cases for Ned being delusional than Dany.

Is it fair to use 21st criteria to judge the sanity of fictional cahracters in a non-existent world? Of course not, it's just a fun thing to talk about. These are, after all people, not aliens with a totally different set of rules, ethics, mores, customs, etc. We can discuss the characters as people, we just have to take into account what the prevailing world view was. so if you insist that Dany is mad, you'll have to come up with some supporting "data' to back that claim up. Saying you'll find proof when you do a re-read doesn't quite hit the mark.

While you're working on that. I'll say that I think Dany has shown concern and compassion for others, demonstrated the ability to think clearly and forumulate logical plans when she's needed to, has been in complete touch with what HER reality is (as written by GRRM), etc.

One of the very first things you talk about in any entry level Abnormal Psych class is what exactly is normal, and how norms change in different cultures and within the same culture as time passes. Dany passes the sanity test when using the standards of GRRM's world, Westeros in particular. I suppose the slave traders thought her mad when she freed the Unsullied, or when she cleverly got her dragon back after using him as coint, but other than those narrow opinion, what else is there? You could go here and easily read a plot synopsis of each Dany chapter in not a whole lot of time, if you were so inclined.

Tower of the Hand ~ An Encyclopedia of Ice and Fire

 

[Eulalia]

Carl Jung might have had fun with Jojen, and the whole book, and our collective unconscious!

TSW mentions the different behavior standards of a fantasy novel.

Tragedy has some good points. I will point out that you may have a false dichotomy at the end of your argument.

I believe that there are certain aspects of what is called mental illness that are situationally induced, (and some of the categories are blurry and, indeed the definitions often change over time) and some that are more biochemically induced and it is difficult to draw the line. However, it would be hard not to identify someone with full blown schizophrenia, if you know what to look for, Dany does not show this and compared to her peers is quite sane, as has been well stated by the Imp. Yet, some other illnesses, and cultural phenomena can have psychotic features.

A lot of people dislike Dany, (that's natural, of course) and I wonder why that is. Maybe she is too logical, or self contained? Is she lacking in humour? Maybe her situation is too over-the-top?

 

[No One]

I believe that there is a kind of universal madness , No One, and we could get into ideas of "Eastern" thought. But let's say the world has Rashomon(a classic movie) tendencies.

I think I get what you mean about compartmentalisation and evolution. However, some people use this as a strategy more than others. The most extreme one that I can think of is Colonel Russell Williams, who was in the Canadian news. He was fairly high up in the Canadian Airforce, and I believe he flew the equivalent of Air Force One. He was a commander of an air base and perhaps destined to be a general. He had a wife in Ottawa and cabin on a lake. But he had a hobby that eventually led to him raping and killing women. Nobody thought anything was off, until he was caught. Other Canadians can help me out with the details.

Other people have lots of parts to their personality(in a normal way), but may be more or less "integrated" or conscious, and at the other end, there is multiple personality disorder, where one part may not actually know about the others.

You're right of course. I was probably just projecting personal issues. What? Who said I have issues? Stop judging me!

As to why Dany seems to divide many a reader, it's no surprise. She's one of the central characters after all and in a position of power. She's also proven herself - for the most part so far - to be capable and intelligent, and far from the underdog she once was. Her decisions are having broader and broader ramifications and that's gonna leave a lot of room for the Dany dislikers in the long term. I won't weigh in on the whole 'is Dany mad' issue, because several others, Imp included, have neatly done that already.

As to Rashomon. I may have seen that. Although I might remember it differently...

 

[Tragedy]

There seems to be an lack of understanding delusion and schizophrenia. It somehow holds connotations that relate it to utter madness, when infact it is not.

A person can be completely moral, logic and intelligent and still be schizophrenic. A delusion is a belief that is not true. Nothing else is effected. You can talk to a totally delusional person, and not know they have this delusion until you specifically ask them - which is often the case. Yes the media potrays schizophrenics as being manic too, which is far from the truth.

From an external viewpoint (because from an internal viewpoint, everyone is pretty close to normal), Dany is delusional, along with any other character (Joffrey, Stannis) who truly believes that the Iron throne and ruling the 7 kingdoms is a God granted gift bestowed upon them. Look at the other "kings" who make claim (Balon, Renly) - often it is for personal gain rather than a delusional belief. Robb became King due to political pressure and as an act of defiance to Joff.

Hell, if I said Viserys was delusional, I wouldnt be met with any resistance at all because people look at his personality and it screams "PD". But Dany suffers the same delusion he does and yet you all rise up in arms and defend her.

So again, delusion has nothing to do with character. It is believing in something which is not true. From our perspective, we have seen how this Game of Thrones has scarred the land so, and how pointless this argument of rulers is. From their perspective, it is normal. But it is also normal to rape during sackings. Gregor Clegane isnt seen as antisocial, rather an utterly thorough commander - a dog, as Tywin says. Cersei doesnt have a paranoia disorder considering the situation she is in and so on, and so forth.

 

[The Imp]

There seems to be an lack of understanding delusion and schizophrenia. It somehow holds connotations that relate it to utter madness, when infact it is not.

A person can be completely moral, logic and intelligent and still be schizophrenic. A delusion is a belief that is not true. Nothing else is effected. You can talk to a totally delusional person, and not know they have this delusion until you specifically ask them - which is often the case. Yes the media potrays schizophrenics as being manic too, which is far from the truth.

From an external viewpoint (because from an internal viewpoint, everyone is pretty close to normal), Dany is delusional, along with any other character (Joffrey, Stannis) who truly believes that the Iron throne and ruling the 7 kingdoms is a God granted gift bestowed upon them. Look at the other "kings" who make claim (Balon, Renly) - often it is for personal gain rather than a delusional belief. Robb became King due to political pressure and as an act of defiance to Joff.

Hell, if I said Viserys was delusional, I wouldnt be met with any resistance at all because people look at his personality and it screams "PD". But Dany suffers the same delusion he does and yet you all rise up in arms and defend her.

So again, delusion has nothing to do with character. It is believing in something which is not true. From our perspective, we have seen how this Game of Thrones has scarred the land so, and how pointless this argument of rulers is. From their perspective, it is normal. But it is also normal to rape during sackings. Gregor Clegane isnt seen as antisocial, rather an utterly thorough commander - a dog, as Tywin says. Cersei doesnt have a paranoia disorder considering the situation she is in and so on, and so forth.

The fatal flaw in your argument, which you continue to ignore, is the FACT that Dany is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, as her brother was before he was killed. If you want to make the argument that the right to rule shouldn't be based on being the offspring of a ruler, i have no qualms with that, however, in WESTEROS, I think the vast majority would agree that she has a rightful claim to the throne. If Dany is delsuional than Robert was as well for rodering a "madwoman" killed.

Gregor Clegane is very likely a psychopath because even in the context of Westeros he acted in a brutally sadisitc manner and showed no signs of conscinece or remorse. The vast majority of Kinights, lords, etc in this world don't act like him. This makes him deviant becuase he doesn't adhere to the NORM of Westeros. The same could be said of Roose Bolton. Or Vargo Hoat.

The really short answer is that delusional thinking is almost always confined to one person. Although something like the Jonestown event could be seen as mass delsuionI used to have a woman as a client who used to go outside with her packed suitcase every day and wait at the curbside for her "fiance" to show up. This person was her old Psychiatrist from the State hospital that she resided in who sexually molested her and eventually went to jail. Of course, he never showed up becuase A) he wasn't her fiance B) he didn't know she existed anymore C) hadnn't made a plan with her, etc. etc. This didn't stop her from doing this every day and crying for hours everty evening becuase he hadn't shown up.

Sh me an instance of Dany being delusional, specifically, acting in a manner consistent with ONLY her own beliefs and turns out NOT to be true. You were going to do this after a re-read, so maybe start that project before wasting more time trying to convince us of something that seems to be a delusion on YOUR part

 

[Eulalia]

Tragedy, I do believe you, and have met, schizophrenics who were moral, intelligent and able to be logical. I have witnessed psychotic episodes.

I've met people with delusional thinking who did not say that they also heard voices. I think that there are some major grey areas, but also times when most people could agree that a person was displaying delusional thinking.

It is hard to know what to say when people talk about madness as a generic term, and I agree that it is not well portrayed in various media. I find it interesting to clarify the terms and make it a topic. And no, I do not have an advanced degree in psychology or psychiatry. I did take a few advanced courses in psychiatry/neurological disorders, but that was years ago.

So, what do people mean when they say that Dany is mad? Or Aerys? Proabaly they do not mean the DSM(?). I doubt that GRRM had the manual in front of his as he wrote. (Please NOBODY suggest that to him!)

I notice that Dany is not my favorite character (though I like her and her adventures), and other people say so as well. And I wonder why that is.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

That would be true, Tragedy, if Westeros were the modern Western, real world, where we believe in things like the right of people to rule themselves, but let's be honest, that too is just a social construct we all like pretty well, and isn't, in fact, based on anything objectively right or true or correct.

Back to my first point, we're talking about Westeros, where in fact, Dany's ancestors created the modern kingdom of Westeros by unifying it with their dragons and armies. They created the political entity, and decided they and their descendants should rule it. So yes, she is the rightful heir, and yes, the Baratheons did usurp them. Now, we don't know if they had any sort of divine mandate to do so, but certainly no gods stood in their way, and they did have dragons, which may or may not be better than having gods anyway.

 

[TK-421]

Makes me think of that brilliant bit in Monty Python's Quest for the Holy Grail. "I'm being repressed!"

YouTube - Monty Python and the Holy Grail

 

[The Imp]

Makes me think of that brilliant bit in Monty Python's Quest for the Holy Grail. "I'm being repressed!"

YouTube - Monty Python and the Holy Grail

thanks for posting that, it's a classic

 

[DeannaBelle]

Eulalia, best thread ever! THis is hilarious! Hmm, maybe these are the true reasons I am so drawn to this series...