Alchemy

[Nik]

Sorry RJM, you have refraction backwards...

For 'normal' materials such as optical glass...
"...different wavelengths of light will travel at different speeds, and so the light will disperse into the colours of the visible spectrum, with longer wavelengths (red, yellow) being refracted less than shorter wavelengths (violet, blue)."

 

[Vertigo]

Whoops I missed that Nik, but it doesn't really change the point he was making, I think he just misunderstood mine

 

[RJM Corbet]

Whoops I missed that Nik, but it doesn't really change the point he was making, I think he just misunderstood mine

Sorry, Vertigo. I did skirt the point you were making. Yah. It's like music: it's arbitary. Western music has a scale of 7 whole notes + 5 semi-tones = 12. Indian, African, Chinese music, treat the sounds differently.
I was just saying that Newton knew what he was doing, and since he invented it, give him his seven colours, if that's how he wanted it?
I stand corrected as regards refraction.
But its an interesting point, which touches on quantum mechanics. Sound is sound. As soon as you take a particular sound and call it 'middle C', the rest of the scale exists around that decision. But the original decision about what note you're going to call 'C' is entirely arbitary?
I really do enjoy learning from these forums. I, too, like the way the threads go off in their own direction, after a while. Thank you.

 

[Interference]

I think the colours got named because there were things you could see in nature that were those colours. I haven't completely worked this through, but I think I might be close. Non elemental colours, or primary colours, of orange and green, for example, are seen in nature and are distinctly different from yellow or blue things. Perhaps violet is quite common as well in some places. Indigo was the real stretch since it's really just dark blue.

Seven was the magic number, though, so seven it had to be. Seven chakras, seven stages of alchemical development, seven dwarves (or Characteristics of Man, which was the reason for that choice in that story) etc ...

 

[RJM Corbet]

Perhaps it is a magic number? Newton was a serious mathematician, I don't believe he would be influenced by 'mystical' sidelines unless he, scientifically, believed them worth investigating? I wish everyone would watch the YouTube link you posted earlier in this thread ...

 

[Interference]

There's mysterious stuff in there And not at all divergent from the philosophy of the time, and thus the science.

I hope no one else watches it - we Magi need our secrets, y'know

 

[RJM Corbet]

You didn't watch the Alchemy You Tube closely enough, did you, Rog? There's mysterious stuff in there And not at all divergent from the philosophy of the time, and thus the science.

Thank you for the edit! I'm terrified of arguing with you! Yes, everyone should watch it. What's ten minutes of your life? It's the merging of the mystical with the science that I'm getting at. That's the whole point I'm trying to make -- that science and 'mysticism' are getting closer, not further apart. To me, the further science advances, the more mystical it gets. Newton, the scientist, has been removed from Newton the (serious) alchemist -- by science. I'm defending alchemy. The 'true' alchemy. It's not an ancient mumbo-jumbo pre-chemistry that is no longer relevant. I also wish everyone would read that book I mentioned. The alchemical texts all refer to Moses being an alchemist. Why reject that outright? But I can't see a 'scientist' reading it with an open mind.

 

[Interference]

ERK!!!!!

No, I'm not terrifying!!!!

I'm just messin' wit' ya

 

[Metryq]

My favourite is the colours of the rainbow. Did you learn that at school? ROY G BIV

Yeah, I saw them at a club once.

 

[RJM Corbet]

Isaac spins in his grave ...

 

[Interference]

... to the beat


I said this somewhere else here - maybe even on this thread, I really don't recall - but the way things are going, with religion exploring science and science touching on the metaphysical, they are bound to find the source of their "truth" somewhere in between and that source is going to be exactly the same thing.

Science will call it the G.U.T. and the church will call it the G.O.D.

 

[RJM Corbet]

After reading Clark Heinrich's 'Strange Fruit' I have come away with the firm conviction that the 'true' alchemists were trying to refine the religious ecstacy producing active ingredient of the Amanita Muscaria mushroom from the ibotenic acid and other poisonous substances the mushroom contains from, would you believe it, urine, in which the muscimol, as opposed to the ibotenic acid, becomes concentrated. Truly the 'heaven or hell' experience, depending on how the mushroom was cured, etc.
Moses was perhaps into the Aminita Muscaria, and alchemist texts all say Moses was an alchemist.
Phosphorus was discovered by boiling urine.
There is that famous painting 'The Alchemist' -- the flask glowing with phosphorus in a dark room. Then there's the little peeing boy statue in Copenhagen. I know how this sounds. But read the book -- read the book. Perhaps it will change your whole view of religion, alchemy and numerous secret societies such as the Rosicrutians. At the least it should make you wonder. Otherwise you'll just put it aside. It will certainly put you off messing around with amanita muscaria for fun. What's to lose?
There. That should put the cat among the pigeons (I'm too tired to compose an original cliche today) ...

 

[Vertigo]

I can certainly believe the urine bit; as I understand it, the Lapland Shamans used to feed Amanita Muscaria to their reindeer and then they drank the urine. Let the reindeers deal with the poison (not sure what other effects they suffered but I believe they were very happy to eat said mushrooms). A common symptom of the Amanita Muscaria is supposed to be a sensation of flying and that is reckoned to be the origins of Santa Claus "flying" in a sleigh pulled by reindeers; these Shamans also entered the local peoples winter homes (dug into the ground for insulation) via the smoke hole and proceeded to hand out presents of charms and talismans. Go figure!

So extracting the active ingredient via urine would seem a strong possibility.

Incidently, for anyone unaware, the Amanita Muscaria is the classic mushroom beloved of pictures of faeries etc. big wide cap, red with white dots (remains of the white skin that initially covers the red body underneath). I believe it is also the mushroom Lewis Carroll is supposed to have been experimenting with at the time of writing Alice in Wonderland (another symptom is a feeling of being out of proportion to your surrounding - a sensation of growing bigger or smaller.

 

[Interference]

When extracting the urine, do remember to smile ....

 

[Brian G Turner]

So why was he dabbling in pseudo-science?

Because he was working at a time when there was very little, if any, general scientific framework to explain even the most ordinary phenomenon.

And there certainly was no modern understanding of the theory of matter, the periodic table, the concept of elements, etc.

Hence he was engaged, as were others, in trying to understand the fundamental properties of matter.

At the time, this would pretty much have been called "Alchemy", and from that the field of chemistry evolved.

 

[RJM Corbet]

Because he was working at a time when there was very little, if any, general scientific framework to explain even the most ordinary phenomenon.

And there certainly was no modern understanding of the theory of matter, the periodic table, the concept of elements, etc.

Hence he was engaged, as were others, in trying to understand the fundamental properties of matter.

At the time, this would pretty much have been called "Alchemy", and from that the field of chemistry evolved.

Newton wrote a 'Principia Chemica' to rival his 'Principia Mathematica' but it was lost in a fire in 1677, along with his most important alchemical writings,which contained so much experimental detail that, apparently, he just could not repeat the exercise. Judging by the effect of the 'Mathematica' it would probably have jumped chemistry a couple of centuries forward, had it survived ...

I can certainly believe the urine bit; as I understand it, the Lapland Shamans used to feed Amanita Muscaria to their reindeer ...

Yes, a little bit at a time, over a few weeks, so as not to make the reindeer sick -- or horse, or child, or whatever was chosen by the particular culture in question. Newton was a very proud and respected man, as were many alchemists. The church was still very powerful in Newton's time. He didn't want that sort of stuff getting out, now did he?