1.05 Game of Thrones - The Wolf and the Lion

[Culhwch]

I'm finding the gratuitous sex completely spoils it...

Hold on, I didn't think we were allowed to criticise the show? Something about the dearth of fantasy on television and embracing what meagre scraps are thrown our way...?

I totally agree with you. It's a little tawdry and cheap, to be honest. Definitely lowest common denominator. This isn't how I imagined the show would be done. Granted, there is sex and violence in the books, but not this much, and not usually for no good reason. There is a depth to the narrative and world building that is entirely absent, and has seemingly been replaced by a good dose of T&A. It's become a running joke between my wife and I - how long until the first tatas come out in this episode? Because you know they're definitely coming.

I have to agree that the fighting is a little stilted and off. I thought Jory's death was a little meek, as well. I kind of dread seeing any of the battles portrayed. Judging by the 'great tournament' and the little flashes of swordplay they've so far shown, it's going to be twenty or so LARPers making one pass at each other, then a cut to sex scene where character A tells character B the outcome while giving him or her a solid once over.

The portrayals of Ned, Jaime, Robert, Cersei, Varys, Catelyn, Petyr and Arya continue to be strong and a highlight, but I'm largely unimpressed otherwise. Dinklage is doing a good job as Tyrion, but I don't know that he his exactly hitting it out of the park. It's a fairly well written role - in both the book and the series - and I wouldn't think that much of a strain to pull off.

For mine the series continues to be just average - though sometimes it flashes the potential it hasn't yet met, and that is largely disappointing. I expected a lot more. Not perfection, not a literal word-for-word, scene-for-scene adaptation. Just something a little less tawdry, a little more mature.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Hold on, I didn't think we were allowed to criticise the show? Something about the dearth of fantasy on television and embracing what meagre scraps are thrown our way...?

Oh critical comments in episode threads are common, hence posted here rather than a dedicated thread.

But this isn't "fantasy". It's mixing two completely different genres of "fantasy".

Point is, the sex scenes pushed in your face without any subtlety, as is the nudity that seems to arise at every excuse.

I haven't tried watching Sparticus: Blood and Sand precisely because it's looks more like a male fantasy of blood and sex, with Rome thrown into the background as an afterthought.

I would have thought any sexual themes in GoT would be treated with intelligence, rather than pushes for controversy for its own sake.

Next episode: Queen Cersei and her maids welcome Sir Puttit Up, a new character created for the TV series played by Ron Jeremy.

I expected a lot more. Not perfection, not a literal word-for-word, scene-for-scene adaptation. Just something a little less tawdry, a little more mature.

Totally agree.

 

[Ursa major]

Either way, looks like I'm going to end up watching this on my own, and dreading the "Ned with sheep" scene we're almost inevitably going to get.

This scene may be worse than you think, as it'll involve some sort of visual reinforcement of the fact that Ned's having the wool pulled over his eyes by many of the other characters.

(I'm half expecting you'll be seeing a whole flock of sheep.)

 

[Perpetual Man]

This scene may be worse than you think, as it'll involve some sort of visual reinforcement of the fact that Ned's having the wool pulled over his eyes by many of the other characters.

(I'm half expecting you'll be seeing a whole flock of sheep.)

This kind of thing would be just baaaaaad

 

[TK-421]

Sorry. Personally, I completely disagree 200% that that show is tawdry and lacks maturity. Doesn't matter why as you've all made up your minds. I do not recall any real sutlety in the books either.

Want to make a difference? Be part of those fans that I am sure are flooding HBO's, GRRM's and Weiss' and Benioff's email inboxes with complaints.

I will sit back and watch the best show HBO has ever produced and the best thing on television right now or a very long while.

Tonk - you hit the nail on the head with your comments above. There is character developement needed, there is a grittiness and people's primal desires that is exposed and there is a sense or urgency and controlled chaos protrayed - that will soon become complete chaos when the war of the 5 kings breaks out.

 

[The Imp]

TK;, that's a pretty big spoiler in what's supposed to be a non-spoiler thread Maybe that could be edited?

As for "tawdriness",bad taste, in your face sexuality, etc.

The books have sex in them. They also have imagery that is far more disturbing IMO. The idea of a 14 year old Dany's (that we see in the book) being sold and essentially raped is in theory more disturbing to me than the 17 year old Danny we see in the series. Using a child watching (as an example), I'd rather have to explain to a 6 year old what Loras and Renly were doing (the real stuff was suggested, rather than shown), than have that same 6 year old have nightmares about Ser Hugh having that piece of the lance sticking out of his throat and gurgling up blood. The same can be said for Ser gregor beheading his horse. I've always found it interesting that network television can show scores of people being killed tortured and maimed (over the course of, say, one season of 24) yet Janet Jackson's "wardrobe malfunction" and the 1 second shot of her boob had America in a frenzy.

This is HBO. HBO sells subscriptions by having programming that isn't available on network television or regular cable. Watch the first episode of Oz (an older HBO show) if you want to see disturbing The books totally lend themselves to being an HBO adaptation, and I think they're doing a good job of keeping the storylines intact. To paraphrase what Ursa said in the other thread, the sex scenes are "info-humping". They know they have your attention, they give you important information, and in reality, there isn't THAT much sex shown. TKF counted 8 sex scenes in 5 episodes. Not a lot really, and done fairly tastefully.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

I tend to agree with the Imp and TK. To me, the sex scenes don't feel contrived, they feel realistic.

 

[Slyde]

I'm finding the gratuitous sex completely spoils it, even more so because it tends to arise in extra scenes written just for the TV series, and it's not even realistically done at that. It's like they got some 15 year old dude to pen the extra scenes, and he's using sex as a fallback.

The Renly and Loras extra scene didn't have them showing any normal intimacy at all - no kissing or fondling, just straight into a BJ. Theon has his way with Rosie and then launches straight into a quick tirade without any apparent sign of satisfaction of being with her.

What next? Ned buggering a sheep while revealing Jon's real mother's name?

Am surprised we didn't get one in the Robert & Cersei exchange, but that scene felt quite pointless and a descent into soap opera.

The joust was far too short and had no atmosphere - at no stage did the joust scenes build up a sense of there being a competition - we saw two sets of competitors, nothing more. I can forgive lack of time, but not when HBO just want to throw soft porn at us for its own sake.

Watched this with my girlfriend and she found the gratuity offensive, targeted at the lowest common denominator, and treating her as a moron who can't get the story unless there's extra sex and extra blood splatter. She doesn't want that, I wonder how many of the original female readers care for that.

Either way, looks like I'm going to end up watching this on my own, and dreading the "Ned with sheep" scene we're almost inevitably going to get.

I agree with everything you said here. If GRRM had written the Renly/Loras relationship this way I would be OK with it, but he didn't. I think it was only added because the trend on TV nowadays is to have at least one gay character on every show.

The writers are butchering the books so badly it feels like I'm only seeing a Readers Digest version. When they are cutting out so much I don't understand why they have to add scenes that aren't even in the book!

The casting, acting, sets, and the scenes from the book are all superb. But trying to do a whole book in just 10 hours is severely diluting the overall quality found in George's work. If I was GRRM I would feel sick about it.

Every summer in Laguna Beach, CA there is a festival called Pageant of the Masters, where live actors and painted sets recreate famous paintings. Imagine the uproar if one year they showed Da Vinci's "The Last Supper" with only 6 disciples, and a blonde short-haired Jesus. No matter how good the actors do their job, it just won't be the same as the original work of art.

 

[svalbard]

By all accounts GRRM is fairly happy about it!

A comment above mentioned not remembering as much sex and violence in the books. Really...GRRM has killed more people than Cecil B.DeMille I feel the add on scenes are working well. They are building characterization in a format that has not got the luxury of pages a character's thoughts. It might at times seem somewhat clunky, but overall it is working.

The foreplay/intimacy between Renly and Loras was the shaving!

Faults that I see are that 10 episodes are not enough to do full justice to the story and I hope A Clash Of Kings gets at least 12 episodes.

Bronn is exactly how I pictured him.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Sorry. Personally, I completely disagree 200% that that show is tawdry and lacks maturity. Doesn't matter why as you've all made up your minds. I do not recall any real sutlety in the books either.

Want to make a difference? Be part of those fans that I am sure are flooding HBO's, GRRM's and Weiss' and Benioff's email inboxes with complaints.

Now, now, good Ser.

I think overall HBO have done a great job with the series so far - I just can't help but feel HBO are pushing on sex and nudity for the sake of it, and it feels a little insulting. That's the immature and bawdy element - the thought of the producers stood behind the script saying "let's put some tits in this bit!".

Personal opinion, nothing more.

The books have sex in them. They also have imagery that is far more disturbing IMO. ... They know they have your attention, they give you important information, and in reality, there isn't THAT much sex shown. TKF counted 8 sex scenes in 5 episodes. Not a lot really, and done fairly tastefully.

Indeed, one shocking piece I always remember is what Gregor did to the family of overthrown Aerys. But we never saw that, we were told, and that in itself is shocking.

But the sex scenes in the book I only remember 2 from what we've got up to in the TV series - Jaime and Cersei, which Bran sees and doesn't understand, referring to it as like "wrestling"; and then Dany with Khal Drogo, which is written as sympathetic to a degree.

Even still, I know there's far more graphic sex and nudity in fiction in general. It's just the feeling that the series is getting sexed up for the sake of it, and I just personally find that difficult to accept.

 

[TK-421]

Now, now, good Ser.

Agree to disagree. As Sandor Clegane would say: I am no Ser.

 

[Tansy]

It's no surprise, they stuck a whole new story line in True Blood that was all about group sex, so I am just pleased they are sticking pretty much to the story as told in the books. or as much of it as they can in 10 episodes.

 

[Ursa major]

If GRRM had written the Renly/Loras relationship this way I would be OK with it, but he didn't. I think it was only added because the trend on TV nowadays is to have at least one gay character on every show.

He didn't write their (real**) relationship this way because the format of storytelling he chose - strict close third-person POVs, one per longish chapter - did not allow it. (He could have shown Renly's and Loras's activities, but only by having at least one extra POV, which would only have made an already complex book harder to follow.)

The only way a TV or film could simulate GRRM's approach would be to let the reader hear the POV characters' thoughts (as in David Lynch's film of Dune). This would have been clunky in the extreme. Apart from anything else, GRRM packs quite a lot of internal thinking into what must be only moments of elapsed time; he can do this because the reader hasn't got a stopwatch running while they're reading. Having scenes pause while the actor fills the soundtrack with backstory and observations can work as a special effect, but gets irritating with any overuse***.


** - Sorry, but Loras and Renly do have a gay relationship in the book, but their private moments are not observed by any of the POV characters. (Other characters comment on these activities later in ASoIaF, but as this is meant to be a spoiler-free zone, I won't say who these characters are.)

*** - Examples being voice-overs that are too long or too many visits to the inside of a character's mind.

 

[Slyde]

By all accounts GRRM is fairly happy about it!
...

I'm sure he is happy about it on some levels - it is financially rewarding, his characters have 'come to life', and he has become even more famous.

On the other hand, if you spent almost two decades creating a work of art how would you feel if it was sold to the masses with much of what made it 'art' being edited out, and other things added just to cater to current trends?

Perhaps when the series is over we'll find out how he really feels.

 

[TK-421]

Sorry Slyde, but GRRM speaks about this in this recent interview.
Joe Abercrombie interviews George R.R. Martin

 

[Ursa major]

GRRM was a TV writer and producer. He will have known exactly what to expect when he licenced the books to be transcribed for TV, if only because he knows that different techniques work in different media and that some media (e.g. books and radio) use much-cheaper props than others (e.g. TV and films).

 

[Slyde]

Sorry Slyde, but GRRM speaks about this in this recent interview.
Joe Abercrombie interviews George R.R. Martin

GRRM was a TV writer and producer. He will have known exactly what to expect when he licenced the books to be transcribed for TV, if only because he knows that different techniques work in different media and that some media (e.g. books and radio) use much-cheaper props than others (e.g. TV and films).

Yeah Ursa, I know he used to write for TV so I'm sure he knew what would happen. But I can't help but think that it has to hurt a little bit to see so much of his brilliant writing end up on the cutting room floor.

You know how much effort he puts into choosing every single word to make everything perfect in the books, I just can't see someone like that being completely happy with the total lack of perfection the HBO writers & directors are coming up with.

The scenes that are right out of the book are brilliant, but the rest are not, and some the missing scenes just ruin the whole thing for me.

Yes, GRRM may be all smiles and kind words now while the series in ongoing (and he's getting a ton of money), but I have a feeling that later he will show at least some dissatisfaction and/or disappointment.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

Just chipping in my $0.02, I actually think George R R Martin will overall be really pleased with the adaptation. Certainly I don't think any other network could have done as good a job as HBO has.

 

[C Of K]

GRRM's own episode should be coming up soon. If I'm not mistaken, he wrote one of the later episodes? We'll see if he left anything out.

It is a shame that there are so few episodes this season, but I wouldn't say all the added scenes have been trash. The scene with Varys and Littlefinger was very intelligent. I can't say why I think so, in this thread because it would spoil much. I also enjoyed the scene with Robert and Ceirce, among others.

The fact remains that this show continues to introduce new characters every episode, and because of the visual medium, and time restrictions, getting to know who these characters are will require scenes that aren't in the book. Just imagine if they had introduced someone like Beric Dondarion in the same episode that they introduced Loras Tyrell. According to the books, perhaps they should have. But that would probably require another added scene for Beric, so it's probably best that they left him out for now.

Great scenes must be cut. A shame, but not the end of aSoIaF as we know it. I've seen other series deviate from their books a lot more than GoT does. Legend of the Seeker had a few character in common with the books, and that was it. I will say that I hope they cut back a little on the sex sometime in the future. Depending on how long this series lasts, two scenes per episode can turn out to be a bit much. Maybe that's just me and a few others, but the sex is just not what drew me to the series and I don't really get anything out of it. I'm not offended, but I just don't need that, and I hope they realize that they don't need a whole lot of it to be successful. The story is good, the acting is good, and I've really not seen anything better on tv for quite sometime. Sex or no sex, I think the show will last..

 

[Culhwch]

I must admit that I thought the scene with Robert and Cersei was a solid addition.