Is science fiction still a male-dominated genre?

[Teresa Edgerton]

Equal opportunity does not mandate equal numbers.

No, but unequal numbers are often a signal that the opportunities are not, in fact, equal. There may be other factors besides gender discrimination, the reasons may be more complex, but the numbers shouldn't be dismissed without an examination of why they are as they are.

The science fiction genre is not exactly flourishing right now. One reason might be because women buy far more books than men do, and because the larger publishing houses (and the big corporations that own them) are no longer so interested in catering to niche markets. Once upon a time, SF could survive by appealing mainly to male readers. This is no longer true. Fortunately, many women do read SF, or the genre would probably be dead by now. Going forward, I think the future of SF is going to be in the hands of the smaller publishing houses, but how many of those will survive in this economy?

Giving the women their fair share of opportunities might broaden the appeal of the genre and keep it thriving. Or ... everyone can sit around and talk about how women are just different from men, poor dears, and see what happens.

 

[Chaoticheart]

To toss out this comment about nursing is sexism.

How so? The comment was entirely accurate. Nursing is perceived commonly as being an 'emotional' job and thus seen as being 'for women'

Nursing is not alone in this, however. Receptionist, Cleaner, flight attendant, Librarian, Hair dresser, Day Care worker etc. are all pink-collar careers.

Whilst one could argue that women are not being forced into these roles, and men are not being forced away from them, to do so would entirely ignore whilst there are many gender equality laws, society itself still assigns genders to particular roles and to some extent stigmatizes those who do not remain within the correct role.

 

[Mouse]

Plus, think of the audience. Guys like action and sci-fi/fantasy are perfect for those. Women like drama and interpersonal relationships. That's why guys only go to rom-coms with gf's and girls generally only go to action with their guy.

Wow. I'd rather ram a fork into my own thigh than watch a RomCom.

Also, I don't think you can tell the sex of the writer at all. People have said they didn't know Robin Hobb was a woman. What about all the female writers who use male pseudonyms, or just their initials?

Anyway, I haven't voted. Why's there no option for both, eh Vertigo? (As in both scifi/fantasy, rather than both male/female, though if we're going for really PC... )

 

[J-Sun]

Anyway, I haven't voted. Why's there no option for both, eh Vertigo? (As in both scifi/fantasy, rather than both male/female, though if we're going for really PC... )

SF and F are like Mia Wallace's Elvis and Beatles. You can like SF and you can like F but NObody likes them both equally.

 

[Mouse]

SF and F are like Mia Wallace's Elvis and Beatles. You can like SF and you can like F but NObody likes them both equally.

I like science fiction. I like fantasy. But which is best? There's only one way to find out... Fight!

Ok, I do prefer fantasy. I also prefer horror.

 

[iansales]

How so? The comment was entirely accurate. Nursing is perceived commonly as being an 'emotional' job and thus seen as being 'for women'

Nursing is not alone in this, however. Receptionist, Cleaner, flight attendant, Librarian, Hair dresser, Day Care worker etc. are all pink-collar careers.

Whilst one could argue that women are not being forced into these roles, and men are not being forced away from them, to do so would entirely ignore whilst there are many gender equality laws, society itself still assigns genders to particular roles and to some extent stigmatizes those who do not remain within the correct role.

That's just plain sexism. There's nothing inherently female about those jobs, there's nothing in them that requires something unique to female physiology. Because men do them as well - although often, they're paid better and they have more important-sounding job titles.

Equality means equal opportunity for both genders. It doesn't mean some jobs are better-suited to women and some are better-suited to men. It means every job is suitable for either gender. And things will never change if people keep on trotting out all the old excuses.

 

[iansales]

It's great that there are so many female sci-fi writers. it's great that they're winning awards. It's very bad if they are being discriminated against over gender. But I hear just as much reverse bias in "political correctness."

I'm sorry; you played the "political correctness" card. That invalidates your entire line of argument.

 

[Vertigo]

Anyway, I haven't voted. Why's there no option for both, eh Vertigo? (As in both scifi/fantasy, rather than both male/female, though if we're going for really PC... )

I did think about that but it really needed two polls and I didn't think it was worth it. Because what I was interested in is the percentage of men to women in each genre.

And by the way I agree with you that very often you cannot tell the gender of the author and there's really no reason you should. And I strongly disagree with an earlier poster who said that most men would not be caught dead identifying with a female lead character. Consider Weber's Harrington books; if men had such difficulty identifying with a female lead character then those books would not be the best sellers they are. I certainly have no problem admitting I can identify with Honor Harrington just as easily as I can with say Agent Ian Cormac.

I really didn't intend this to become an argument about sexism but rather about choice. I know there may well be sexism in the publishing business (to be honest I'd be far more surprised to learn there isn't) but that isn't what I was interested in. It's the choices being made by male and female readers. The radio programme asserted that the majority (though not a big one) of SF readers are male, I was interested to see how than panned out here. If I had lumped them together then I might as well have just checked the ratio of chrons members. Of course the answer is far from comprehensive as it will also be biased by any gender bias towards using the internet or joining forums such as this one.

 

[Chaoticheart]

That's just plain sexism. There's nothing inherently female about those jobs, there's nothing in them that requires something unique to female physiology. Because men do them as well - although often, they're paid better and they have more important-sounding job titles.

Equality means equal opportunity for both genders. It doesn't mean some jobs are better-suited to women and some are better-suited to men. It means every job is suitable for either gender. And things will never change if people keep on trotting out all the old excuses.

Ian, you seem to have completely misinterpreted my post. In fact I'm slightly confused as to how you managed to interpret it as you did.

I was agreeing with your assertion that nursing as 'woman's work' is sexist and providing examples of other careers which suffer the same issue in order to demonstrate that, even with supposed equal opportunity in the work place, society is still highly influenced by perceived gender roles, and claims that they are not sexist are simply ignorant.

 

[clovis-man]

Interesting how jobs in nursing, clerical and various service industries seem to have generated more impassioned dialogue than the original question. I worked in the nursing industry (as a licensed Psychiatric Technician) for a number of my early years. I can certainly attest that it was generally female dominated in those days. Which is not to say that I had any difficulties with the notion of the role being fulfilled by either gender. It was a non-issue for me. But it didn't alter the fact that most of my co-workers were female. Which, in the final analysis, is apropo of nothing.

Vertigo's OP asked about readers, not writers. But I certainly would think of either question differently. I have several favorites among female SF writers and am wide open for more. Most fantasy I have read is by male authors. Again, this probably means absolutely nothing. My exposure to both genres is probably quite limited when compared to most folks on this forum.

But I do see most SF readers as male, probably because of the "gear-head" quotient. Fantasy, OTOH, I see as being read more by females, but couldn't begin to tell you why.

That's my opinion and if you don't like it, I have others.

 

[kurzon]

It's a little hard to tell if the original question covers SF writers or SF readers.

Given that the last three SF authors I've read were: Kristine Kathryn Rusch, Lois McMaster Bujold, and Connie Willis, and my favourite SF author is Andre Norton, I tend not to view SF as "dominated" by male writers.

I haven't heard any recent statistics about what percentage of the SF readership is female, so it's hard to make statements. There seems to be a large female audience for it, though. [There might be an even larger female audience for romance, etc, but in terms of the audience who enjoy books branded as SF, I'd be interested to know if there was a significant skew male/female. The audience for SF television seems to include a strong female contingent.]

However, there seems to be a valid question as to whether gender has an impact on what books are passed by publishers, and what books are recognised by awards. If, for instance, you know that a percentage of the SF readership will openly state that they don't read books with female protagonists/authors, will you tend to publish "male" books in order to gain the broadest possible readership? If awards tend to place higher value on books which explore hard sciences rather than, say, the social impact of widely available uterine replicators, do you end up with a "best books" list dominated by hard SF books (which apparently have a higher percentage of male writers)?

It's never seemed a cut and dried situation to me - some of my favourite male authors write good female protagonists. Some of the books I read may as well not have female characters at all. And Andre Norton is infamously a quintessentially male writer. For an individual reader, I don't think it hurts to read what you prefer, but for awards I would like to think that the judges at least approach their decisions with a measure of self-awareness of preferences for protagonist gender, or the value placed on hard v soft sciences.

Plus, think of the audience. Guys like action and sci-fi/fantasy are perfect for those. Women like drama and interpersonal relationships. That's why guys only go to rom-coms with gf's and girls generally only go to action with their guy.

I'm bored by rom-coms and my favourite movie is Aliens. Where do I go for my re-wiring?

 

[iansales]

Ian, you seem to have completely misinterpreted my post. In fact I'm slightly confused as to how you managed to interpret it as you did.

I was agreeing with your assertion that nursing as 'woman's work' is sexist and providing examples of other careers which suffer the same issue in order to demonstrate that, even with supposed equal opportunity in the work place, society is still highly influenced by perceived gender roles, and claims that they are not sexist are simply ignorant.

I apologise. I did indeed misinterpret your post. In my defence, I had just got back from the pub (although I'd only had the one pint). Sorry.

 

[iansales]

It's interesting that sf novels and stories by female sf writers of past decades have aged much better than male sf writers of the same period - cf Isaac Asimov and Leigh Brackett. CL Moore. Le Guin's novels from the 1960s and 1970s read less dated than those by of many men from the same period.

 

[J-Sun]

BTW, I know the thread's on fans, but I was thinking about starting a thread on good female SF writers and decided to search first:

Female science fiction authors
and
Female Fantasy Authors
and even
SF/F - Male or Female?

I haven't read the threads yet, but people interested in this thread might be interested in those.

 

[Chaoticheart]

I apologise. I did indeed misinterpret your post. In my defence, I had just got back from the pub (although I'd only had the one pint). Sorry.

haha one pint and a few shots?

 

[J-WO]

You undermine your own point here. I presume you are also a white male? Would you reject a female wanting to join the group? Likely not. The problem isn't some sinister plot by crusty white dudes trying to keep women down, it's a lack of interest among women in writing spec fiction (tellingly, they are more common in fantasy which has a lot more traditional "romantic" themes) or reading it. I've met many guys that will make fun of sci-fi fans, but few that actually hate sci-fi. Meanwhile, I know tons of women that would never ridicule someone for the taste, but hate the very idea of star wars or star trek as being too "weird."

I've never seen the value in "forcing" equality. If women are being kept out of publishing by basis of their gender, then sure they have a gripe. But pushing to "develop" writers just because one feels the genre doesn't have enough of category A makes no sense. There was no market for sci-fi at all initially... people had to prove the writing merited attention and develop the interest in it. This happened naturally. If there is a market for female-oriented sci-fi it will be found, but not by a bunch of white guys taking benevolent pity on struggling women writers and pushing their novels down people's throats. It will be found by women writers excelling and tackling issues that readers find appealing.

Thus why I'm also not remotely surprised by someone's observation above regarding their psych class being dominated by women. It fits with the theory that women find emotional or inter-personal themes far more interesting than the typically political, military, or social themes that dominate sci-fi. And why women are far more common in traditional fiction or fantasy than sci-fi.

So- following your line of argument regarding my post- if women aren't writing SF because their brains aren't wired for it and the lack of women in my workshop is evidence for that then the same must be true of non-white brains too.

Now I'm sure you don't believe that, Soul, but how come you can comfortably say that's a scientifically grounded fact for one group's non-attendance and not the others?

 

[J-WO]

It's a little hard to tell if the original question covers SF writers or SF readers.

Let's face it, the two are pretty much indivisable!

 

[J Riff]

From:
HOW TO WRITE A Romance - AND GET IT PUBLISHED!
UPDATED EDITION INCLUDES Black and White photos!
PART NINE -Can a man write romance?
My first Sci-Fi Fantasy Romance by Ava Musriter

' - women did not play major roles in such tales. Perhaps that's why romance fiction evolved, to make women heroines in our own books- when we could only be noble mothers, evil seductresses and pedestaled ladies in men's stories.

Women's fiction became intensely concerned wit relationships between men and women characters, specifically. - Carol N. Douglas

BION- there's a lot of great writing advice in this book, from popular bestselling romantic writers. I have to go now - Patricia Matthews is explaining to me how devising a plot is like building a house. And then me and Jenny Wilde are going to - (discontinued)

 

[Fried Egg]

It's interesting that sf novels and stories by female sf writers of past decades have aged much better than male sf writers of the same period - cf Isaac Asimov and Leigh Brackett. CL Moore. Le Guin's novels from the 1960s and 1970s read less dated than those by of many men from the same period.

Just a thought but perhaps it's because female SF authors were more concenred with human issues and characters and men are more concerned with technological issues and social backdrops. The former being more timeless concerns, the latter being far more likely to date. A gross over-simplification perhaps but there might be a slivver of truth to it...

 

[iansales]

Egg, might be some truth to that. Also I suspect the bar was set higher for female writers...