Crop Circles

Not 'easily' mosaix -- not in a few hours of darkness ...

The thing is RJM, crop circles appear in summer*, when it's light quite early for a few hours before anyone is around. And with a bit of planning, a few people (each taking a small bit) can do a lot of work. Here in Shropshire it's easy to walk around my garden at 3:30am without any difficulty at all.


*Lack of light is probably why we never get snow circles, that and the footprints leading away would all too obvious...
 
The thing is RJM, crop circles appear in summer*, when it's light quite early for a few hours before anyone is around. And with a bit of planning, a few people (each taking a small bit) can do a lot of work. Here in Shropshire it's easy to walk around my garden at 3:30am without any difficulty at all.


*Lack of light is probably why we never get snow circles, that and the footprints leading away would all too obvious...

The crops also appear in summer ... :)

I don't know about snow circles. Good point, I suppose ...
 
I think anyone coming into this thread at a later stage could actually watch the videos at the start of the thread before jumping in with a knee-jerk response?

If you're suggesting that I did not watch the video, I can tell you that it convinced me more than ever that humans are making these patterns. I agree with Mosaix's "you judge" posting, which is essentially Occam's razor: "don't multiply entities unnecessarily."

I've read Carl Sagan's detailed explanation of the Arecibo message beamed at M13, and the message itself makes tremendous assumptions, the biggest of which is that aliens would think enough like humans to "recognize" DNA, a radio telescope, and a human silhouette in the very low resolution graphic. A music video titled "Video Computer System" pays homage to the old arcade video games. The brilliance of the piece is that humans can recognize the figures in the animations at all. As for the Arecibo message, I don't "see" how those curves are supposed to look like DNA, a shape more complex than a cube. Yet there is a certain level of understanding "assumed" for a wireframe cube figure:

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Also, the Arecibo message was sent out by radio telescope. Why would aliens/time travelers/Atlanteans reply in crushed grass? "But the return message was near a radio telescope and shows silicon based life! That proves it was aliens!" Perhaps it's an inside joke by the pranksters that a computer was used to map out the "reply." For all you know, I'm one of the "insiders," which is why I "know" this was part of the inside joke. ("Computers" are also on several of the planets in our Solar system.)
 
That's where we differ, RJM. :)

I think it is easily explained, by the very things that you mention.

Easily? The ones in that video?

How would you even map them out to start with? Would you use GPS? (What degree of accuracy does GPS have in an open space, btw? Is a few inches possible?)

I'm more than happy to start from the assumption that they're the work of human beings, but I'd like to see some discussion as to how they might be made.
 
If you're suggesting that I did not watch the video, I can tell you that it convinced me more than ever that humans are making these patterns. I agree with Mosaix's "you judge" posting, which is essentially Occam's razor: "don't multiply entities unnecessarily."

No I'm not suggesting that. Sorry. No, it wasn't implied at all, Metryq ...
 
GPS is not accurate to a few inches, although making crop circles does not have to be all that complicated.

How Stuff Works

How did the Nazca artists create their giant works of art?

(Although some archaeologists reject the theory as ad hoc, Jim Woodman conducted "experimental archaeology" to determine if the Nazca art was meant to be viewed by balloon. The Nazcas had textiles suitable for balloons, "burn pits" for hot air were found near many of the lines, and the art on Nazca pottery shows what appear to be balloons and kites. The incas, who followed long after the Nazcas, have legends of a boy named Antarqui who flew above the battlefield to report enemy positions.)

How did the ancient Egyptians plot farm land? How did the ancient Greeks plot and build the Parthenon, a structure requiring massive machines and complex stone cutting equipment for its modern renovation? The ancients were very clever at working out these things when there were no other alternatives, and there are lots of clever people today who enjoy doing complex things in "simple" ways that puzzle other people into wondering, "How did they do that?" That was my point in the exclusion principle above: just because one may not be able to puzzle out an alternative does not mean that alternatives do not exist.

I read about a final exam given at an engineering school. The test was administered in a common "science" classroom with sinks, bunsen burners, and other hardware. A 2.5 meter tall lucite tube was bolted to the floor, and a ping pong ball was dropped into it. The exam was to remove the ball from the tube by the end of the exam period using only items available in the room. Students worked in groups. Many groups did things the "hard way" by tearing up T-shirts into strips and fishing the ball out of the tube with some chewing gum, or similarly Rube Goldbergish designs. Some of the brighter groups simply used beakers to fill the tube with water from the sink. None of the groups resorted to UFOs with anti-gravity tractor beams.

Sometimes one can be hobbled by "knowing too much."

An experiment similar to that with the ping pong ball was conducted with chimpanzees in a "natural" enclosure featuring bushes, trees, and a small beach. Feed grain was thrown onto the sand. Many of the younger and more stubborn chimps proceeded to pick the grain out of the sand one grain at a time. A grizzled oldster grabbed a handful of beach and threw it into the water, then scooped the floating grains off the surface of the water.

Many solutions are simple, if we allow ourselves to see them.

"Shoot the hostage." —from the movie Speed
 
Yuki Nagato, Mikuru Asahina, and Itsuki Koizumi all plead "innocent," but Ryoko Asakura is claiming responsibility for all crop circles in Canada.
 
Easily? The ones in that video?

How would you even map them out to start with? Would you use GPS? (What degree of accuracy does GPS have in an open space, btw? Is a few inches possible?)

I'm more than happy to start from the assumption that they're the work of human beings, but I'd like to see some discussion as to how they might be made.

HareBrane, I'm convinced that if you and half a dozen of your mates with mixed ability skills got together to come up with a method of duplicating what was done in that video, you could probably do it by the week-end. Your execution of it may be a bit rough-around-the-edges at the first attempt but after implementing a few I'm sure you could execute a design or two that would attract the cry of aliens!

I've seen your posts over the years, HareBrane. I've read your work in the challenges, I know you're an intelligent person. I'm convinced that trampling out a design in long grass, at night isn't beyond you - given some thought.

Edit: To follow on from Metryq's posts about problem solving. Try this. Most of us believe that our houses are secure. Ever locked yourself out and had to find a way in without a key? I did. I was in the house within 5 minutes without leaving a trace. As Metryq says people work out ways of doing things when there are no alternatives.
 
About a year ago I saw a documentary on TV by the BBC. On crop circles.

They had a bunch of university students who confessed to doing them. They showed their methods. These guys were computer whizz kids, and they planned it all out on computer well in advance. Amazing detailed patterns. Each one of their group knew well in advance exactly what he/she had to do. Basically it was done with boards and ropes.

There are a number of such groups in the UK, and they are quite competitive with each other. Each outdoing their rivals in complexity and ingenuity.

If you look at the history of crop circles, you will see a growth in complexity. Simple ones at first, growing more complex over time. This is the result of competition between different groups of university students. Never underestimate the ingenuity of a prankster!

Let me also quote Richard Feynman on the subject of UFO's.

"It is far more likely that UFOs are the result of the known irrational nature of terrestrial intelligence than the unknown rational nature of extraterrestrial intelligence!"
 
Yeah, I saw a documentary on BBC where a guy claimed he was the son of God, an ancient reincarnated soul, and so on. Didn't make that documentary true, either... Some people will own up to anything just to get on the Television. And the day you start believing in 'its-on-the-television-it-must-therefore-be-true' is the day you start believing in aliens visiting: you can't have it both ways.

I'd like to see the documentary where the incredibly complex patterns are reproduced iovernight the dark, etc etc, but with a real-time counter running. Documentary makers will do anything to get on the televison - it's how they make a living...
 

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Same guy? And they all just happen to be based upon the alien from the alien autopsy vid.

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And that video was... you guessed it - a fake. The alien in this was in turn based upon an alien race described in Sandgren's Den okända faran which could be based upon H G Wells's Selenites and/or one of the alien races in war of the worlds.
 
Ok Chaotic, fair point and yes, the 'alien' does look suspiciously pop-art.

The debate really is: how was that done?

It's suggested that -- assuming, say, that aliens were responsible -- they would make sure we earthlings 'got the message' in the most direct and startling way -- and therefore designed it to be effective at a level that would directly and immediately to appeal to human consciousness -- which is precisely the effect it has achieved, even here in this thread.

The 'CD' is something we all immediately recognize and understand, and were able to decode, for example?

Of course, the aliens may really look like that.
 
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The original clip was very intriguing, but I find the notion of Aliens using binary dubious, especially 8 bits to a byte binary, then also that it refers to ASCII and that it translates into English, all a bit odd. Though as RJM says it could be the best way to communicate with us (the best way that is available to them)
There does seem to be an amazing high level of coordination between different 'circles' and a surprisingly cohenrent narrative to the explainations.

I'm not sure that I believe in the students who say yes we did it, if I remember correctly the guys who came out and admitted to the early ones were some old guys, it always seemed a little unlikely that they were fully responsible. Of course it could be that they are in the pay of the government and the 'grays' and have been bribed to admit it was them in an effort to disparage their authenticity.
 
The original clip was very intriguing, but I find the notion of Aliens using binary dubious, especially 8 bits to a byte binary, then also that it refers to ASCII and that it translates into English, all a bit odd. Though as RJM says it could be the best way to communicate with us (the best way that is available to them)
There does seem to be an amazing high level of coordination between different 'circles' and a surprisingly cohenrent narrative to the explainations.

I'm not sure that I believe in the students who say yes we did it, if I remember correctly the guys who came out and admitted to the early ones were some old guys, it always seemed a little unlikely that they were fully responsible. Of course it could be that they are in the pay of the government and the 'grays' and have been bribed to admit it was them in an effort to disparage their authenticity.

I don't know -- but it would be nice to know 'we're not alone'. I hope it's true, and that's the whole thing: it's easier to make someone believe a lie they want to believe, than a truth that they don't want to believe?

If they're leaving crop circles and stuff it makes you wonder why they don't come on and do something definite and unmistakable: you're not alone, and all your great science is but fluff in the wind to us ...

There's the question of free will, they may perhaps advise and signal, but humans must direct their own destiny?
 
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Moonbat wrote: Of course it could be that they are in the pay of the government and the 'grays' and have been bribed to admit it was them in an effort to disparage their authenticity.

Planet ten, real soon? What is this, Buckaroo Banzai?

Though as RJM says it could be the best way to communicate with us (the best way that is available to them)

These alleged aliens can receive radio signals, like the Arecibo message, yet you're suggesting that the best way for them to reply is by coming all the way here to stomp grass? You know, there's a deposed Nigerian prince who needs your help.

RJM Corbet wrote: it's easier to make someone believe a lie they want to believe, than a truth that they don't want to believe

Bingo. Because it was really the ETs who helped NASA fake the Moon landings by carrying a radio transmitter there. That way if anyone picked up the telemetry, it would definitely be coming from the Moon.

Actually, the grass was stomped by Mega Robot.
 
Neil Armstrong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1vFEwAJZQY&feature=player_detailpage

I am NOT suggesting the moon-landing was false. That's ridiculous, and even if someone's inclined to believe it, how would such a cover-up be concealed when so many people were involved.

But those guys saw something out there they were not at liberty to discuss ...

Buzz Aldrin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlkV1ybBnHI&feature=player_detailpage

Gordon Cooper:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvPR8T1o3Dc&feature=player_detailpage

These are astronauts, highly trained observers ...
 
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Actually, the grass was stomped by Mega Robot.

No one responded to my earlier robot idea. I can't find many hits on Google relating robots and crop circles either. But wouldn't it actually be fairly easy for some robotics researchers to set off a crawling machine to flatten wheat in a programmed pattern?
 
I don't know -- but it would be nice to know 'we're not alone'. I hope it's true, and that's the whole thing: it's easier to make someone believe a lie they want to believe, than a truth that they don't want to believe?

If they're leaving crop circles and stuff it makes you wonder why they don't come on and do something definite and unmistakable: you're not alone, and all your great science is but fluff in the wind to us ...

There's the question of free will, they may perhaps advise and signal, but humans must direct their own destiny?


Let's face it, if they did arrive 'unannounced' every nucler weapon would be thrown at them, and millions would panic and milions would die. Ah, the power of Hollywood and the media, to influence people.... Of course they could just be stopping here for directions...
 

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