Quick Fire Questions (A Place to Ask and Answer)

[Warren_Paul]

EDIT:
Just had a thought: Could the queen calling Kateryn's mother 'Helena'remove the need for there to be a title (Helena/her mother/she answered)?

In that situation, yes, maybe, as long as it doesn't make the reader think Kateryn is speaking.

Here is a perfect example of my problem:

She was uncomfortably aware of Rose’s eyes boring into her. She resisted the urge to look in her sister’s direction and smirk. Kateryn blinked in surprise when a little face peeked out from behind the queen’s layered skirts and directed big blue eyes up at them.

Her mother leaned down towards the round-faced girl. ‘Are you not just the sweetest little thing?’ The pale haired girl scooted back behind the folds of the queen’s dress, drawing a collection of laughs from those nearby.

‘Mabell, my youngest, she will be four this winter,’ the queen said, and ushered the girl out from behind her. The girl stood there, clutching at the frills of the queen’s dress, looking even more nervous than Kateryn felt.

In that, the "her mother" is of course Kateryn's mother, but there is the possibility the reader might think I'm meaning Mabell's mother, the queen.

EDIT: Just realised how horrible that first paragraph is, rewording it now.

So would it be ok to replace the "her mother" in red with: "Helena" while in Kateryn's PoV?

 

[crystal haven]

Hi Warren,

I hope I'm understanding correctly.

'Her mother leaned', is Kateryn's mother, and the child is the queen's child. And it is from the POV of Kateryn?

How about separating the paragraph, so that the it becomes:

Mother leaned down towards the round-faced girl. ‘Are you not just the sweetest little thing?’

The pale haired girl scooted back behind the folds of the queen’s dress, drawing a collection of laughs from those nearby. ‘Mabell, my youngest, she will be four this winter,’ the queen said, and ushered the girl out from behind her. The girl stood there, clutching at the frills of the queen’s dress, looking even more nervous than Kateryn felt.

But I write first person mostly, so this might not be right.

 

[Warren_Paul]

Hi Warren,

I hope I'm understanding correctly.

'Her mother leaned', is Kateryn's mother, and the child is the queen's child. And it is from the POV of Kateryn?

How about separating the paragraph, so that the it becomes:

But I write first person mostly, so this might not be right.

Thanks Crystal, you're right, so doing that fixes the identity of the "her mother"?

 

[crystal haven]

Thanks Crystal, you're right, so doing that fixes the identity of the "her mother" to you?

I felt that using 'Mother', instead of 'her mother, would put it firmly into Kateryn's POV, because I wouldn't think of someone else's mother, as just 'Mother'.

So yes, separating the paragraphs and using Mother works for me.

I've just read this post - I hope all those mothers make sense.

 

[Warren_Paul]

I felt that using 'Mother', instead of 'her mother, would put it firmly into Kateryn's POV, because I wouldn't think of someone else's mother, as just 'Mother'.

So yes, separating the paragraphs and using Mother works for me.

I've just read this post - I hope all those mothers make sense.

In 1st person using "Mother" would be fine, but it would be strange in 3rd, unless it's dialogue or internal thoughts.

Or can I use Mother?

hmm, thinking now...

 

[crystal haven]

You see, I'm rubbish at 3rd person.

But I would still try splitting the paragraph, then it will indicate a different view - not meaning view point. I think...

Maybe I should just go away again, back to my 1st person books.

Just had a thought... Is Kateryn's mother wearing anything the reader knows about - that would tell the reader which mother it was, like a necklace moving when she bends down towards the child.

 

[Abernovo]

Even though it's from Kateryn's POV, it's 3rd Person. I have experience of how difficult it can be when you have a few characters of the same sex or with a similarity in the same scene, yet sometimes it can't be avoided.

Crystal haven's suggestion of breaking the paragraph works, as you've already noted. I once saw a suggestion that a writer have a list of brief descriptors for characters, some of which would only be used around certain other characters.

So you could describe the two women as older/younger (as for that second, they're not a duchess and a queen, but simply mothers of daughters: equals in that respect); they could have different hair colours (Mabell could have the same shade as the queen); taller/shorter; or Kateryn's mother could talk to Mabell as Kateryn remembered from her own childhood.

All of them would show little differences. However, reading what you've put up, here and previously, you probably know all of this. Best of luck.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

To be honest, I'd go for the KISS, and refer to her as her mother, or Katelyn's mother, or "Mother" in dialogue, and try to mix them up as much as poss. I have a lot of 3 way conversations for some reason, I must like them, and while it's a pest, when I leave the designator's out people lose track of who's who. I agree with Crystal, though, that playing with the paragraphs and run of things can help, too.

 

[Warren_Paul]

All of them would show little differences. However, reading what you've put up, here and previously, you probably know all of this. Best of luck.

Thanks Aber. That's the thing, I already know the answer to my question, I just don't like it.

So was hoping for somebody to suggest an alternative so I didn't have to keep to it.


@Crystal Yeah, musing over; can't use "Mother" it's just wrong in 3rd person. And the reality is, while I'm inside Kateryn's head, all I can use is "her mother" or "Kateryn's mother" in narrative, and "Mother" in dialogue/internal thoughts.

EDIT:

Yeah, that's what I'm doing at the moment, Springs. Thanks. Crystal's suggestion for the paragraph change is my best hope.

 

[crystal haven]

After having another cup of coffee and waking up properly, I realised 'Mother' wouldn't have worked. Silly me.

 

[Warren_Paul]

After having another cup of coffee and waking up properly, I realised 'Mother' wouldn't have worked. Silly me.

Coffee works miracles.

 

[crystal haven]

Coffee works miracles.

It does. But I need very strong coffee!

 

[Gumboot]

Sorry, Aber, edited post.

No, there are 8 PoV characters. At other places I use her mother's actual name.

It's just confusing for scenes where there are multiple mothers involved

I just can't have Kateryn referring to her mother as "Helena" or "The Duchess" or "my lady" "milady" (as the common folk would) because none of those would be something she'd use. Which leaves me with "Her mother" or "Mother"

Minor nitpick, but the correct mode of address for a Duchess is "Your Grace" not "My Lady".

 

[Mouse]

Try Google Street View for an idea of the area, Mouse. It won't substitute for local knowledge, but it might help.

Mm. That's what I was doing all afternoon yesterday. Was hoping some real-life Londoners'd stop by to help.

 

[Arthur_Connelly]

The word "lunch" feels out of place even though its first use is more or less around the same time my story takes place. Am I better off calling it dinner - since that's what people used to call it and still call it in the place where I'm from? Or am I better off calling it luncheon. I've been consistent at least in referring to to modern Western concept of dinner as supper so maybe it won't confuse anyone.

 

[Venusian Broon]

Mm. That's what I was doing all afternoon yesterday. Was hoping some real-life Londoners'd stop by to help.

Hey Mouse, didn't see your question yesterday! So probably too late.

Not my neck of the woods, but I can compare with journeys I do on foot around London with the distance on the map.

I'd say if you knew where you were going and were walking fast then it's about 30-40 minutes from Saint John's Wood tube station to Arlington road in Camden. By car 6 minutes...depends on traffic...late at night (post midnight) you can really race around London, so 6 minutes would be slow-ish. But if it was mid-morning to Early Evening, you'd probably be lucky to achieve 6.

 

[Mouse]

Breakfast. Dinner. Tea. Lunch is what you have when you're at work.

Awesome, VB, thanks loads!

 

[The Judge]

Ah, the lunch/dinner/tea/supper social minefield...

Arthur, is it their main meal of the day or just a light snack? What social class do they belong to? Are children present for the meal if they are of upper middle/upper class? What era are we talking here?

Luncheon developed from nuncheon in the 1570s ish. Per an etymology site "lunch" was first recorded in its short form in 1786 but

But as late as 1817 the only definition of lunch in Webster's is "a large piece of food." OED says in 1829s the word "was regarded either as a vulgarism, or as a fashionable affectation.

And well into the 1920s and later, I think "luncheon" would still be the preferred use for the upper classes.

 

[Arthur_Connelly]

Judge, the time-period is roughly equivalent to the 1810's - although not on our Earth. The current viewpoint character is a young courier. For her this is just a light meal since she's running around and can't really sit still until the end of the day so "supper" is her main meal.

My other three POV's are upper class although one is more or less new money and hasn't given up his country habits so I can see him calling it "dinner" instead of "luncheon".

What about "tiffin"?

 

[Abernovo]

I believe tiffin tends to be afternoon tea (as in the drink, with a slice of cake, of course). It can also be luncheon, though.

However, I have a couple of caveats. I'm not sure when tiffin came into common usage. It may be after 1810.

The other thing is that, in the past, the evening meal was not always the big meal of the day, as it tends to be today. In fact, the afternoon meal could often be large, especially in higher class families. This may be the reason there's confusion over the word dinner, as it referred to the main meal of the day, rather than a set time to eat it.