Ballantine Fantasy Series.alt

[Extollager]

What you say from your experience, Elflock, is interesting and could be good advice for some readers. Yet some of the "old people" can point the way to some great stuff that younger readers might miss. At least, this "old: guy hopes so, since I mean to teach a course on classic fantasy starting in January.

I'm figuring that most or all of my students won't have read George MacDonald, Lord Dunsany, Rider Haggard, Wu Ch'Eng-En (Arthur Waley's version of The Journey to the West, called Monkey), Amos Tutuola's My Life in the Bush of Ghosts, Lafcadio Hearn, William Morris, and others whom I'm thinking of including.

As a college freshman myself, almost 40 years ago, I took courses from, got to know, and hung around the office of, Dr. Brian Bond, at Southern Oregon State College as it then was, and here was a guy who knew more about fantasy than I did even though I'd been exploring it for years. As in: he introduced me to Kenneth Morris's Book of the Three Dragons, etc. Plus he helped me get more from the high fantasy stuff I already knew. I wouldn't have wanted to miss it!

But really there isn't a complete difference between you and me on this topic, I think, because I felt that much of what I was doing was following up on my own exploration, which at that time included exploring with the help of Dr. Bond. And he was a nice guy, didn't insist on my liking some things that he appreciated (e.g. Russell Hoban) but that didn't take off for me.

You're right about the attractive BAF covers -- also just the feel of the books and the look of the typography.

 

[Elflock]

Yes,all good points...of course the cover art wasn't the only reason I bought things,but it was a huge factor. I didn't have the money for new books so I was always in second hand shops and I would just buy a couple of cheap things that looked like they should be good. I actually reckon you CAN judge a book by it's cover! To a certain extent anyway,and if they were only $2 or whatever...you could grab a couple that looked good. Like,until more recent times I didn't have any books ABOUT science fiction/fantasy etc,like about the history of it or the authors and that...but obviously I wouldn't have known what to look for if I didn't read SOME introductions like these Lin Carter ones and things on the back of paperbacks and stuff like that. In fact,the introductions to these Ballantine books are where I first heard about all these old authors and the history of fantasy etc etc. The thing I don't like about the Lin Carter introductions is that he kind of tends to tell you the 'point' or whatever of the stories. He doesn't 'spoil' it as such,but I used to hate reading HIS intro's especially,more so than any other editor. It makes reading the story just an intellectual exercise because you sort of already KNOW what it's about...so you are just reading it to confirm (or not) what he's already told you in the stupid intro! You see?...it's not that black and white,but that's the way it always felt to me. I soon learned that it was much better to read his intro after I read the story. Same with every other editor!
ps This editor thing has always been a bit of a mystery to me...like a record 'producer'. What a job! Michael Moorcock was 'editor' of two books of Victorian science fiction,but he did nothing except write a short intro to the books...and Lin Carter? Editor? Hello? I suppose it was because he was a passionate fan,but then...so am I,and so are you,and so are most other writers and fans...who gets to be an editor and how??

 

[Extollager]

Yes... I suppose "editor" or "consulting editor" for Carter on the BAF was something of a courtesy title for some of the books. Some of the volumes, of course, were selected stories and poems for which he was responsible. I believe he did edit the series edition of MacDonald's Phantastes, removing some poems -- right? I don't have the BAF MacDonalds. I think he also said that he edited out a very little of the text of Hodgson's Night Land.

I've probably been influenced more than I realize by the comments of editors and others. There have been cases where I had the idea that such and such a book was not for me, would be something I wouldn't finish, and then I actually gave it a try and was quite taken with it. That happened recently with David Lindsay's the Haunted Woman and The Violet Apple.

So what you're saying, Elflock, is that I should try those Deryni books, right? ;-)

 

[Elflock]

Yes! No wait...no! Try S Fowler Wright instead

 

[Elflock]

I wonder if there are any young kids these days who are remotely interested in any of this old stuff anymore? Like,today it seems the average 22 year old 'fantasy' fan is a Harry Potter fan who's grown up with that series and the Lord of The Rings movies...you know? Is that the state of fantastic fiction in 2011? Obviously this is a generational thing to a certain extent,but to my mind the whole fantasy/sci-fi genre basically died a long slow death throughout the 1980's...I tried to read a lot of those ridiculous multi volume fantasy series from those days,but I just couldn't get into any of it at all. You know,Julian May,Stephen Donaldson,Anne McCaffery,Jack Chalker...etc etc etc...that's when I started looking backwards to the older writers. To the point where I'm now not even interested in trying out any new author at all because I've discovered enough cool old things to easily last me for the rest of my life. And I already have them just sitting in my ebooks folder...and they were all free!

 

[Extollager]

Yes, Elflock -- I would rather read (or reread) another Rider Haggard, say, free thanks to Project Gutenberg, than take up Robert Jordan et al.

I too wonder about whether very many under-35's are interested in classic fantasy or likely to take to it. Some of the reason for a difference might have to do with the marketing of paperbacks. Ballantine's AF releases were liable to appear on mass market paperback racks in food markets and drug stores, as I'm sure some of us will remember. You didn't have to go into a bookstore and look in the fantasy genre section to find them. I don't mean to imply that, if such books were readily available in drug stores and supermarkets today, significant numbers of young readers would be interested. I suppose the thing that draws them to fantasy, when that happens at all, is usually exposure in movies, TV, and games. Oh, another difference: I wonder if, a generation ago, some of the attraction of books for kids was that (whether they thought about it consciously or not) there was often time in school when one could read. I was packing BAF books such as Dunsany's At the Edge of the World, and other fantasy, with me to school by 9th or 10th grade. Now, though, I suppose when kids have unassigned time in school they are likely to be doing things with computers rather than reading books.

 

[Elflock]

Yes,the point you make about reading at school etc is interesting I think,I have to say that my grand daughter actually loves reading books so there's still hope. I just commented on another thread how I actually prefer ebooks these days. But that doesn't stop me worrying when I hear on the news that several states in the USA are now considering teaching texting...INSTEAD of cursive writing! Like they said they will not be teaching that anymore??? Is that right? Now surely this can't be a good thing for all concerned!! Especially the poor kids who don't even have a mobile phone or a computer...
What are they thinking?

 

[Extollager]

Elflock, what you report about the schools sounds to me like one more instance of the increasingly seamless relationship between government and big business... don't get me started. (And I am a conservative!)

Obviously many people who started reading and buying books in their teens forty years ago like to remember they fun they had, the excitement they felt when a new BAF title appeared on the paperback racks or whatever. I wonder if people in their teens today will have similar appreciative memories about some sort of discovery. Similarly, some older readers today revisit books they enjoyed in their teens and find that the books do hold up pretty well, sometimes very well. Will there be a similar experience for today's teens 40 years hence? The experiences of today's middle-aged and older people that I refer to are not essential for happiness, of course!

But do we have any further nominations for the alternate BAF?

 

[Elflock]

Well,I suppose the fact that there's not exactly a long queue of people posting comments on any of these 'classic sf&f' topics says a bit about the current state of things. Also it seems that most of the people on these forums are not exactly young...
I've checked out a few forums like this over the years,and I've always been amazed at just how few people are actually interested in science fiction/fantasy in general these days...let alone the vintage stuff. Or is it just that the fantasy fans are not into public forums? Too shy or something? What I've noticed is that most of the under 40's were 'gamers' rather than readers.
There was a discussion somewhere on this forum I think about D&D being the catalyst for the demise of fantasy or something like that...I think there's a bit of merit in that argument myself. All that 80's stuff I mentioned before read like a computer game that was written by a robot to me...

Well,that 'Atlantida' one would have been a pretty good candidate for the series actually. It's like Haggard etc,but it's also different! I reckon the guy,Pierre Benoit, must have been a bit of an opium head or something!

 

[Extollager]

We'll see if maybe a few undergrads take to fantasy when I teach that class. I think many of them do have "their" fantasy books -- Harry Potter, Twilight, graphic novels, etc. Does anyone think that Rowling drew much on earlier fantasy in her books? I know that from a young age I was interested in reading things that Tolkien might have read (Haggard's She!) or that people who liked Tolkien thought were somehow akin (Carter's recommendations). So perhaps a way into the wider ranges of fantasy for Rowling's fans might be possible, if she seems to have been influenced by earlier stuff or to have continued its spirit or atmosphere. I haven't read any of the books, except about the first 70 pages of the first one.

I would love to see more suggestions for the BAF.alt list (and I will have to check up on Atlantida), but here's a topic. What classic fantasy should be recommended to young readers who maybe know only Tolkien (thanks to the movies) and Narnia?

Well, of course that depends on the young person to some extent. But should one even suggest, say, William Morris?

 

[Elflock]

This whole tv/movie thing is a huge influence on the way that kids relate to books now,more than ever. It's kind of interesting that the kids DO still love reading in a way. Like,sure,it seems to take a tv show like Twilight or a movie series like HP to get them INTERESTED in it,but then,once they start the series,they can't get enough books of it. It's all to do with advertising and all that stuff of course,but as you said...don't get me started on that!
I've seen a few of the HP movies on dvd with my grand daughter...Rowlings' influences seem to be just the usual things,fairytales,Tolkien etc,but I don't know what she would acknowledge as her influences. But they DO have a kind of compelling little story to them,you know?
I've read my grand daughter lots of old fairytales especially when she was a bit smaller,she really loves them. Girls just like romantic stories! Even when they are little kids. They do! But of course you have to kind of explain to them about all the chopping off of heads and that!
Actually,I wouldn't hesitate to read her anything by Morris...that's exactly what she would like. I've read her some of 'The Princess And The Goblin',by MacDonald,but the language was a bit too archaic or something...
The Hobbit would be one she'd like.
I think another really good thing to include in the BAF series would have been a collection of C L Moore's Jirel stories. There were only five of them or something,so maybe they could've put some of her Northwest Smith stories in with them (that's sci-fi,but it's really more like weird fantasy)
Another classic for that series would have been Haggard's 'Eric Brighteyes'. Surely there was room for another Viking saga in there somewhere in addition to the Poul Anderson one.

 

[dask]

How about THE WIGWAM AND THE CABIN, a collection of stories by William Gilmore Simms. Don't know how many are fantasy but according to Van Wyck Brooks one story,"The Lazy Crow", is "a first-rate realistic sketch of a case of African witchcraft on one of the plantations" in the early 19th century American South, and another, "Grayling, Or Murder Will Out" was, according to Brooks, called "the best American ghost-story" by Poe himself. While these do seem to slope towards horror they might appeal to the classic fantasy lover. There's also Simms's "Castle Dismal", a longer story of the supernatural that might have felt right at home in NEW WORLDS FOR OLD.

 

[Extollager]

Elflock, there was a 1969 paperback edition of the Jirel stories, so I myself would rule that out for the BAF.alt list. Dask, Lin Carter might have gone with your nomination of a horror-esque Simms title for the BAF.

I've seen Frank Stuart's Caravan for China listed as a fantasy novel by Cawthorne and Moorcock -- has anyone read it? I don't suppose it was in print during the BAF period. Sure has a mundane title -- Carter would need to retitle it Quest for the Forbidden City or something!

 

[Elflock]

Elflock, there was a 1969 paperback edition of the Jirel stories, so I myself would rule that out for the BAF.alt list. Dask, Lin Carter might have gone with your nomination of a horror-esque Simms title for the BAF.

I've seen Frank Stuart's Caravan for China listed as a fantasy novel by Cawthorne and Moorcock -- has anyone read it? I don't suppose it was in print during the BAF period. Sure has a mundane title -- Carter would need to retitle it Quest for the Forbidden City or something!

Yes sorry,in fact I have that '69 edition of Jirel myself.

Never heard of Simms,I found his stuff here...
http://arthursclassicnovels.com/simms.html

Haven't heard of Stuart either. It looks like a Talbot Mundy type of adventure/fantasy thing maybe. If Moorcock and Cawthorne call it fantasy,that's good enough for me. Haha,yes,LC could have at least earned some of his editor fee with a change of title.

There was a guy called Arthur O Friel who wrote some fantasy type of lost race things that I've had for ages but haven't ever got around to reading because I could never find the last two in the series...there are Green Indians and other strange jungle denizens in them apparently etc.
There's only one available free but you can buy the ebook of another one with a couple of the stories in it I think.

http://manybooks.net/titles/friela3032430324-8.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_O._Friel

I just noticed that the first two had been republished in '69 and '71 by Centaur...so BAF could have published the other two then! So that's why I couldn't find them...never published in book form it seems.

 

[Elflock]

Btw,I'd give 'Atlantida' about 7/10...it's a good one.

 

[dask]

How about THE DEVIL'S PULPIT by William Cullen Bryant?

 

[Extollager]

Perhaps this will appeal to some people who like to talk about classic fantasy that can evoke a sense of wonder.

Don't get me wrong: at one time I relished the Hodgson, Lovecraft and Machen titles in Lin Carter's Ballantine Adult Fantasy series (1969-74) and enjoyed some of the Clark Ashton Smith material. However, it has seemed to me for a long time that weird-horror fiction like most of this material feels different from the rest of the books in the series that I have read (I haven't read all of it -- e.g. the Cabell and Kurtz books).

What would you nominate to fill the spaces if the following hadn't been published, as being a bit outside the purview of a fantasy classics series?

Hodgson, The Boats of the "Glen Carrig" (but retaining The Night Land)
Machen, The Three Impostors
Lovecraft, The Doom That Came to Sarnath (but retaining The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath)
Lovecraft et al., The Spawn of Cthulhu
Smith, Zothique, Hyperborea, Xiccarph, Poseidonis

This leaves room for eight book suggestions.

I'm suggesting these nominations should be for reprints of works published no more recently than 1965 (not originals) and that they should be works that were not available in paperback from anyone else before 1974, the year the BAF series ended.

Feel free to choose a then-active cover artist for your nominations!

If you prefer, just figure that the series stands as it is, but that you'd like to nominate up to eight additional titles. (Yes, I've seen the rumored additional titles listed at the Wikipedia entry on "Ballantine Adult Fantasy Series.")

Here are two nominations:

Kenneth Morris, Book of the Three Dragons (cover artist Gervasio Gallardo)

Machen, The Great Return (a collection that would include "N," "The Great Return," "The Happy Children," and "A Fragment of Life") (cover artist Bob Pepper)

Dale Nelson

I've been doing a Baylor and reviving some old threads. How about this one.

 

[BAYLOR]

Perhaps this will appeal to some people who like to talk about classic fantasy that can evoke a sense of wonder.

Don't get me wrong: at one time I relished the Hodgson, Lovecraft and Machen titles in Lin Carter's Ballantine Adult Fantasy series (1969-74) and enjoyed some of the Clark Ashton Smith material. However, it has seemed to me for a long time that weird-horror fiction like most of this material feels different from the rest of the books in the series that I have read (I haven't read all of it -- e.g. the Cabell and Kurtz books).

What would you nominate to fill the spaces if the following hadn't been published, as being a bit outside the purview of a fantasy classics series?

Hodgson, The Boats of the "Glen Carrig" (but retaining The Night Land)
Machen, The Three Impostors
Lovecraft, The Doom That Came to Sarnath (but retaining The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath)
Lovecraft et al., The Spawn of Cthulhu
Smith, Zothique, Hyperborea, Xiccarph, Poseidonis

This leaves room for eight book suggestions.

I'm suggesting these nominations should be for reprints of works published no more recently than 1965 (not originals) and that they should be works that were not available in paperback from anyone else before 1974, the year the BAF series ended.

Feel free to choose a then-active cover artist for your nominations!

If you prefer, just figure that the series stands as it is, but that you'd like to nominate up to eight additional titles. (Yes, I've seen the rumored additional titles listed at the Wikipedia entry on "Ballantine Adult Fantasy Series.")

Here are two nominations:

Kenneth Morris, Book of the Three Dragons (cover artist Gervasio Gallardo)

Machen, The Great Return (a collection that would include "N," "The Great Return," "The Happy Children," and "A Fragment of Life") (cover artist Bob Pepper)

Dale Nelson

Ive Read all of those ,, excellent stuff.

 

[BAYLOR]

I've been doing a Baylor and reviving some old threads. How about this one.

What's old can become new again.