The Clegane Brothers

[juleska]

Apologies if this has been covered in depth before, but I've just been reading over old threads here and see a lot of assumption that there's an impending showdown between The Mountain and the The Hound. I thought we had confirmation that The Hound was dead. There is someone else haunting the Riverlands wearing his helm, but that septon that Brienne was traveling with said he gave him the gift of mercy and buried the Hound himself. As for the Mountain, the last we saw of him he was dying slowly of Oberyn's poisoned spear, he was taken to the dungeons until Qyburn was "finished" with him, then his head was on its way to Dorne (being delayed along the way due to the Myrcella situation).

So what is the reason for this speculation that both are alive and a showdown is impending? I know that Cersei implies there is some kind of mega-champion that Qyburn's been cooking up in the dungeons who would be at her disposal....but that she is required to use a knight of the Kingsguard (that little plot she used on Margarey sure did backfire, eh?). I could see the insinuation that whatever this monster is may be the reanimated corpse of Greagor Clegane but it begs a few questions:

1) Whose head is on its way to Dorne if not The Mountain's?

2) If it's not The Mountain's head, how in the blue blazes does Cersei think she's going to fool Dorne? The man was/is huge, his head is pretty distinctive. It's not like there's a surplus of half giants matching his description laying around King's Landing.

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

Re: Sandor. If you read the section at The Quiet Isle from AFfC carefully, you'll notice that when Brienne arrives there's a hulking brute of a man digging a hole with his face covered. He pets Dog. I think the general consensus (and jump in here and correct me if I'm wrong guys) around these parts is that man is Sandor. The septon is careful to say that The Hound is dead, not Sandor, the implication being that he's stopped being anyone's dog and found some peace. Personally, I buy it, they have Sandor's horse Stranger there and that beast never let's anyone but Sandor touch him.

Re: Gregor. I think the general expectation is that Qyburn has used his body to create some kind of Frankensteinesque monster down in the black cells (a Qyborg if you will, though some prefer Gregorenstein. I find the former appelation much the more elegant). He's asked Cersei for the frightfully heavy armor too heavy for a man to lift and he seems pretty confident that whatever he's created will be an unstoppable killing machine.

As far as the head goes... I think the two most popular theories floating around are that the Qyborg doesn't need a head or that Cersei used that unnaturally large dwarve's head that was presented to her as a substitute. The theory being that, stripped of flesh it'd be big enough to fool anyone.

I prefer the Qyborg doesn't need a head theory mostly because it ties up nicely with Bran's dream from way back in AGoT and I like to imagine this is all plotted out that tightly.

He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

 

[viZion]

I know that Cersei implies there is some kind of mega-champion that Qyburn's been cooking up in the dungeons who would be at her disposal....but that she is required to use a knight of the Kingsguard (that little plot she used on Margarey sure did backfire, eh?).

She's required to use a knight of the Kingsguard and her problem was that they were all still alive. But one died in AFFC conveniently opening up a position...

 

[viZion]

Check out this thread for more info including how I think they'll end up meeting:

http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/42931-the-hound-a-theory.html

 

[Hilarious Joke]

I think this will prove helpful, juleska.

 

[juleska]

Thanks for the links everybody....jeeeeeeeez it's getting tough keeping up with all the un-deads.

 

[Boaz]

Just so.

One comment... The big gravedigger also slings dirt on Ser Hyle's feet. He did not do this to Brienne, Pod, Meribald, or anyone else... just the one knight in the group.

By the way, I thought we'd decided on Frankengregor.

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

As I said, I find Qyborg much more elegant. Frankenstein is the name of the doctor after all...

 

[bedlamite]

Has anyone entertained the possibility that the women being taken to Qyburn's 'lab' may not be for dismemberment, but for, ahem, breeding purposes?

 

[Tywin]

I thought I'd dust off this thread a bit since this was all pre-ADWD. Anyone have any changes to the previous theories on the Clegane brothers, or any further insights?

 

[Needle]

I think the conclusions remain pretty much the same. I am more sure than ever that Sir Robert Strong used to be one Gregor Clegane. Who the heck else could it be?

We didn't learn anything new about Sandor but personally I believe he is on the Quiet Isle. With luck The Hound is indeed dead, but Sandor may not be such a bad guy! As much as Sandor may be in love (as much as he is capable anyway) with Sansa, I think he and Arya were made for each other! Just imagine the chaos those two could create!!

 

[The Imp]

I think the conclusions remain pretty much the same. I am more sure than ever that Sir Robert Strong used to be one Gregor Clegane. Who the heck else could it be?

We didn't learn anything new about Sandor but personally I believe he is on the Quiet Isle. With luck The Hound is indeed dead, but Sandor may not be such a bad guy! As much as Sandor may be in love (as much as he is capable anyway) with Sansa, I think he and Arya were made for each other! Just imagine the chaos those two could create!!

ANyone happen to remember how Duncan the Tall died, where he was buried, and if he could have been "residing" in the bowels of the Red keep waiting for Qyburn to reanimate him? I'm not suggesting Duncan would want to be part of such a thing (if he had a choice) but he was huge, and he was LC of the Kingsguard under Aegon.

 

[Tywin]

I didn't think the Hound was such a bad guy to start with, if he's reborn as somebody gallant I'll be sorely disappointed.

No clue on Duncan the tall, I don't recall it being mentioned anywhere that Kingsguard get buried in the Red Keep. I don't remember graveyard or crypts there, and the only time I remember any mention of where the bodies of people in the keep go after they die is of Eddard and Tywin (Kings' Hands, not Kingsguards) who both were returned to their estates (at least that was the plan, admittedly Ned's bones are AWOL ATM).

 

[The Imp]

I didn't think the Hound was such a bad guy to start with, if he's reborn as somebody gallant I'll be sorely disappointed.

No clue on Duncan the tall, I don't recall it being mentioned anywhere that Kingsguard get buried in the Red Keep. I don't remember graveyard or crypts there, and the only time I remember any mention of where the bodies of people in the keep go after they die is of Eddard and Tywin (Kings' Hands, not Kingsguards) who both were returned to their estates (at least that was the plan, admittedly Ned's bones are AWOL ATM).

The LC of the knigsguard might get a place of honor within the Red Keep, but that's only a guess. I only mentioned Duncan the Tall because he's the only person ever mentioned (other than Sandor and Hodor) who might be able to pass for gregor in death and in a suit of armor.

 

[Needle]

I didn't think the Hound was such a bad guy to start with, if he's reborn as somebody gallant I'll be sorely disappointed.
.

I don't think The Hound was a bad guy really but he belonged to the Lannisters, Sandor does not.

 

[TK-421]

There are significant parallels between Sandor's and Jaime's stories and evolution as characters. Granted, their motivation was different and I believe Jaime has a few more layers than Sandor.

 

[Boaz]

I'm about to argue terminology... not semantics, but the two terms we use to identify one, Sandor Clegane. I'll also delve into Sandor's psychological state... but since I'm an amateur pshrink, feel free to shout me down.

The Hound and Sandor. Two different people? We use them to refer to the seemingly two sides of the same person... like Smeagol and Gollum. Sandor was a small boy with dreams... and fears. The Hound was a mask he developed to protect Sandor. I think we'd all agree that Sandor is the man and the Hound was one of Tywin's monsters. But after being the Hound for so many years, Sandor lost himself... and the Hound took over.

I didn't think the Hound was such a bad guy to start with

If you mean when Sandor was seven, then I agree.

I don't think The Hound was a bad guy really but he belonged to the Lannisters, Sandor does not.

I disagree, the Lannister's Hound was a very bad man.

Does anyone remember Mycah? The Hound chopped him into small pieces and then gave him back to his father.

You know what? I was wrong. The Hound is not a bad man. He's a freaking psychopath!!!! And that is the sad thing... Sandor developed the Hound to protect himself from the Mountain, but he became the same murderous villain that he despised.

As long as the Lannisters had strong opponents for him, he was an obedient and stalwart dog. But when he was unleashed upon unarmed innocents, we saw his absolute savagery.

Only the threat of fire could bring back Sandor, the little boy.

Like Jaime, he's no longer at his physical peak... and mayhaps he wants a shot at redemption. We'll see.

Also, GRRM uses siblings as an ever present tool to compare and contrast his characters. Sibling rivalry and sibling fidelity are constant themes. Think of Viserys and Dany. Eddard and Brandon. Eddard and Lyanna. Eddard and Benjen. Robb and Jon. Jon and Arya. Arya and Sansa. Robert and Stannis. Stannis and Renly. Renly and Robert. Theon and Asha. Euron and Aeron. Aeron and Victarion. Victarion and Euron. Cersei and Jaime. Jaime and Tyrion. Tyrion and Cersei. Joffrey and Tommen. Edmure and Catelyn. Catelyn and Lyssa. Hoster and Brynden. Doran and Oberyn. Oberyn and Elia. Margaery and Loras. Loras and Garlen. Arianne and Quentyn. Ramsay and Domeric. The Sandsnakes. The Redwynes. The Manderlys. The Umbers. The Swanns. The multitude of Freys.

As far as sibling relationships go... the Cleganes make the Lannisters, Greyjoys, Freys, and Baratheons look normal.

 

[The Imp]

I'm about to argue terminology... not semantics, but the two terms we use to identify one, Sandor Clegane. I'll also delve into Sandor's psychological state... but since I'm an amateur pshrink, feel free to shout me down.

The Hound and Sandor. Two different people? We use them to refer to the seemingly two sides of the same person... like Smeagol and Gollum. Sandor was a small boy with dreams... and fears. The Hound was a mask he developed to protect Sandor. I think we'd all agree that Sandor is the man and the Hound was one of Tywin's monsters. But after being the Hound for so many years, Sandor lost himself... and the Hound took over.

If you mean when Sandor was seven, then I agree.

I disagree, the Lannister's Hound was a very bad man.

Does anyone remember Mycah? The Hound chopped him into small pieces and then gave him back to his father.

You know what? I was wrong. The Hound is not a bad man. He's a freaking psychopath!!!! And that is the sad thing... Sandor developed the Hound to protect himself from the Mountain, but he became the same murderous villain that he despised.

As long as the Lannisters had strong opponents for him, he was an obedient and stalwart dog. But when he was unleashed upon unarmed innocents, we saw his absolute savagery.

Only the threat of fire could bring back Sandor, the little boy.

Like Jaime, he's no longer at his physical peak... and mayhaps he wants a shot at redemption. We'll see.

Also, GRRM uses siblings as an ever present tool to compare and contrast his characters. Sibling rivalry and sibling fidelity are constant themes. Think of Viserys and Dany. Eddard and Brandon. Eddard and Lyanna. Eddard and Benjen. Robb and Jon. Jon and Arya. Arya and Sansa. Robert and Stannis. Stannis and Renly. Renly and Robert. Theon and Asha. Euron and Aeron. Aeron and Victarion. Victarion and Euron. Cersei and Jaime. Jaime and Tyrion. Tyrion and Cersei. Joffrey and Tommen. Edmure and Catelyn. Catelyn and Lyssa. Hoster and Brynden. Doran and Oberyn. Oberyn and Elia. Margaery and Loras. Loras and Garlen. Arianne and Quentyn. Ramsay and Domeric. The Sandsnakes. The Redwynes. The Manderlys. The Umbers. The Swanns. The multitude of Freys.

As far as sibling relationships go... the Cleganes make the Lannisters, Greyjoys, Freys, and Baratheons look normal.

Well stated Boaz. The only family unit that I think is worse than the Clegane's is the "father/son" team of Roose and Ramsay/

 

[Needle]

I'm about to argue terminology... not semantics, but the two terms we use to identify one, Sandor Clegane. I'll also delve into Sandor's psychological state... but since I'm an amateur pshrink, feel free to shout me down.

The Hound and Sandor. Two different people? We use them to refer to the seemingly two sides of the same person... like Smeagol and Gollum. Sandor was a small boy with dreams... and fears. The Hound was a mask he developed to protect Sandor. I think we'd all agree that Sandor is the man and the Hound was one of Tywin's monsters. But after being the Hound for so many years, Sandor lost himself... and the Hound took over.

If you mean when Sandor was seven, then I agree.

I disagree, the Lannister's Hound was a very bad man.

Does anyone remember Mycah? The Hound chopped him into small pieces and then gave him back to his father.

You know what? I was wrong. The Hound is not a bad man. He's a freaking psychopath!!!! And that is the sad thing... Sandor developed the Hound to protect himself from the Mountain, but he became the same murderous villain that he despised.

As long as the Lannisters had strong opponents for him, he was an obedient and stalwart dog. But when he was unleashed upon unarmed innocents, we saw his absolute savagery.

Only the threat of fire could bring back Sandor, the little boy.

Like Jaime, he's no longer at his physical peak... and mayhaps he wants a shot at redemption. We'll see.

Also, GRRM uses siblings as an ever present tool to compare and contrast his characters. Sibling rivalry and sibling fidelity are constant themes. Think of Viserys and Dany. Eddard and Brandon. Eddard and Lyanna. Eddard and Benjen. Robb and Jon. Jon and Arya. Arya and Sansa. Robert and Stannis. Stannis and Renly. Renly and Robert. Theon and Asha. Euron and Aeron. Aeron and Victarion. Victarion and Euron. Cersei and Jaime. Jaime and Tyrion. Tyrion and Cersei. Joffrey and Tommen. Edmure and Catelyn. Catelyn and Lyssa. Hoster and Brynden. Doran and Oberyn. Oberyn and Elia. Margaery and Loras. Loras and Garlen. Arianne and Quentyn. Ramsay and Domeric. The Sandsnakes. The Redwynes. The Manderlys. The Umbers. The Swanns. The multitude of Freys.

As far as sibling relationships go... the Cleganes make the Lannisters, Greyjoys, Freys, and Baratheons look normal.

Ok Boaz I give! The Hound was indeed a psychopath! I must however disagree that he was any where near his brothers psychopathic status! The Hound did what he did without regret or conscience yet Gregor on top of being dumb as a rock, went out of his way to hurt people and liked it.

 

[Tywin]

Sandor did harsh things when necessary to survive in a harsh world, a world that was significantly harsher for Sandor than for other men. Killing Mycah in today's society would make a man a psychopath, killing him while carrying out your lord's will in the medieval world of GRRM makes you a loyal retainer who is dependable enough to carry out your duty even the tasks are distasteful.

Gregor took pleasure in hurting people. There is absolutely a difference.