The Clegane Brothers

[The Imp]

A smiley would be out of character.

TK-421, I think you just described Sandor perfectly.

I'm not sure Sansa's been reborn yet though. If she sticks a sword in Littlefinger I'll believe it.

i was kidding about the smiley, but then I would have had to have said that I was flabbergasted that you think that Sansa deserved to be psychologically tortured in the way in which i described.

 

[Tywin]

Speaking harshly to people and even scaring them when needed is not necessarily psychological torture. Especially given that with her status and lineage, the fate of thousands of lives potentially hinge on her growing out of her stupidity.

The entire civil war in Westeros after the death of Robert can be laid at Sansa's feet.

 

[The Imp]

Speaking harshly to people and even scaring them when needed is not necessarily psychological torture. Especially given that with her status and lineage, the fate of thousands of lives potentially hinge on her growing out of her stupidity.

The entire civil war in Westeros after the death of Robert can be laid at Sansa's feet.

Sandor was a drunken boor who terrorized a little girl. He wasn't being a teacher, mentor, or even a strong adult figure to be emualted. He willfully carried out the sadistic whims of his master.

As for Sansa being the cause of the War of the Five Kings. Where to start?

Why not blame Eddard for trusting Sansa with sensitive information? Heck, why not just blame Eddard for getting taken to school by every player in King's Landing? Why not blame Catelyn for talking Eddard into taking the job of Hand?

The reasons for the war go far beyond the blabbing of a 12 year old girl. Rboert was a terrible King, He didn't really WANT to be king, he only wasnted the conquest. Whoring, hunting and eating was far more appealing to him than ruling, or paying attention to those he chose to rule in his stead.
The fact that the 7 Kingdoms fell apart after Robert's death speaks to the fact Robert was an atrocious king, not that Sansa couldn't keep her mouth shut for one night.

 

[Tywin]

I don't disagree with any of those other reasons for the war that you posted.

Sansa particularly though is such a disappointment because she is a Stark, and the rest of them have such a heroic sense of duty and justice that her personality just makes me cringe. 12 is not a little girl in their world, it is right on the edge of being a young (marriageable and beddable) woman. Her younger siblings Arya and Bran have fought and killed, and are growing into some of the most powerful beings on their planet.

And on the subject of her keeping her mouth shut, that wasn't just a slip up that let Cersei know what Ned's plans were, she willfully betrayed her father to the queen.

 

[Needle]

I don't disagree with any of those other reasons for the war that you posted.

Sansa particularly though is such a disappointment because she is a Stark, and the rest of them have such a heroic sense of duty and justice that her personality just makes me cringe. 12 is not a little girl in their world, it is right on the edge of being a young (marriageable and beddable) woman. Her younger siblings Arya and Bran have fought and killed, and are growing into some of the most powerful beings on their planet.

And on the subject of her keeping her mouth shut, that wasn't just a slip up that let Cersei know what Ned's plans were, she willfully betrayed her father to the queen.

In Sansa's defense, and I don't usually defend the potted plant!, She had no knowledge of just how dangerous the situation in KL had become, neither did Arya. I think Sansa only hoped that the queen would make Ned let her stay in KL to wed Joff, she wanted to stay even though her family was leaving.

Also, young people, maybe especially young girls do crazy things for "love" all the time, both in this world and GRRM's. They are invincible and can't see past their own hormones!

I really believe she is much stronger than most think. Arya and Bran have had things much more difficult times physically yet Sansa is trapped with the very people who have destroyed her family, the very boy she loved so much had her father killed and she had no way out, her torture is mental and emotional, in some ways worse than physical abuse. Then you add The Hound to the mix, she is terrified of him yet he was the only protection she had from Joff, and even though he was indeed cruel to her he protected her as well.

Sansa stated her situation best to Tyrion when he said she was a deer surrounded by wolves and her response was "Lions."

 

[Tywin]

I would agree that what Sansa went through was torturous on a psychological/fear level. It was also torturous to read, POV chapter after POV chapter where the reader just screams, "Kill them! Fight back already!" and she sinks further with each selfish (informing on her father because she wants to be with Joffrey), or cowardly (not escaping with the Hound, and therefore leaving herself as a hostage for the Lannisters to use against the Starks and Tullies) miss-step along the way.

I'm hoping, as I suppose most readers are, that the degradation of her character will only make her redemption that much more powerful if she finally grows a spine. This is GRRM though, so we can never be certain that he will follow the classic or expected character development.

 

[The Imp]

I don't disagree with any of those other reasons for the war that you posted.

Sansa particularly though is such a disappointment because she is a Stark, and the rest of them have such a heroic sense of duty and justice that her personality just makes me cringe. 12 is not a little girl in their world, it is right on the edge of being a young (marriageable and beddable) woman. Her younger siblings Arya and Bran have fought and killed, and are growing into some of the most powerful beings on their planet.

And on the subject of her keeping her mouth shut, that wasn't just a slip up that let Cersei know what Ned's plans were, she willfully betrayed her father to the queen.

It was absolutely willfull and intentional.

Yes, in parts of Westeros a 12 year old girl is approaching womanhood would be expected to start developing a sense of how the real world works, and what it means to be a Lord's wife. Sansa is from "the provinces" She has been edcuated, but has a total lack of sophistication when it comes to politics or even matters of the heart. When we meet her she fancies herself to be a woman and future Queen, but her view of the world is still shaped by the fairy tales told to her by Old Nan. She is further limited by Ned's unfortunate choice (was it actually his) of Septas. You know nothing Jon Snow could easily have Sansa Stark substituted in it. Sansa is clueless when she gets to King's Landing, and it takes quite a while for her eyes to open. When we leave her though, she has gone from having one of the worst possible teachers to one of the best. She's still a Stark, she can still be a warg, and she's going to outfinger Littlefinger one day. Don't underestimate how powerful Sansa has the potential to become. SHe starts out as a lamb and will end up as a direwolf. I'd bet on it.

 

[Tywin]

It's the betting on her fulfilling that potential that keeps me turning pages in those Sansa chapters which give me the same feeling as listening to fingernails on a chalkboard.

I suppose we can lay some blame here on Ned. For his sons he apparently had a very strict moral regimen to teach them right from wrong because after all, 'Winter is Coming'. We even start out the series with him bringing his young sons to see an execution at his hand for educational purposes. For the girls? I didn't see anything of the sort. He brought in Syrio Forel for Arya after much prodding on her part, but that is reactive, not proactive as it was for the Stark boys.

 

[The Imp]

It's the betting on her fulfilling that potential that keeps me turning pages in those Sansa chapters which give me the same feeling as listening to fingernails on a chalkboard.

I suppose we can lay some blame here on Ned. For his sons he apparently had a very strict moral regimen to teach them right from wrong because after all, 'Winter is Coming'. We even start out the series with him bringing his young sons to see an execution at his hand for educational purposes. For the girls? I didn't see anything of the sort. He brought in Syrio Forel for Arya after much prodding on her part, but that is reactive, not proactive as it was for the Stark boys.

I agree, and to Ned's credit he recognized who Arya was going to become and decided to help her do that in the best way possible. With Sansa though, she was brought up to be a "Lady" and it wouldn't be expected that her education would consist of being politically smart, although you could make the argument that this might have been Cat's job. Sansa's problem was being in the totally insular environment of Winterfell, almost a world onto itself. The only lessons she learned were from Old Nan and Septa Mordane. Old Nan told here fairy tales, and Septa Mordane's big concerns were etiquette and making sure Sansa could sew, although it's unclear why she would ever need that particular skill.

 

[Tywin]

Sewing or more particularly embroidery was seen as a ladies skill and a sign of class in our world from the middle ages up until fairly modern time.

 

[The Imp]

Sewing or more particularly embroidery was seen as a ladies skill and a sign of class in our world from the middle ages up until fairly modern time.

She'd have been better off doing Needlework

Thanks for the info

 

[Tywin]

The feeling I had reading about Sansa was similar to the feeling of reading the story of Natasha in War and Peace, and if I remember right there was a ton of needlepoint embroidery going on during that story.

 

[Timba]

It's the betting on her fulfilling that potential that keeps me turning pages in those Sansa chapters which give me the same feeling as listening to fingernails on a chalkboard.

I suppose we can lay some blame here on Ned. For his sons he apparently had a very strict moral regimen to teach them right from wrong because after all, 'Winter is Coming'. We even start out the series with him bringing his young sons to see an execution at his hand for educational purposes. For the girls? I didn't see anything of the sort. He brought in Syrio Forel for Arya after much prodding on her part, but that is reactive, not proactive as it was for the Stark boys.

I miss Syrio.

 

[The Imp]

I miss Syrio.

I do as well, but I think he's alive in one form or another, so I think we'll see him again, as Syrio.

 

[Tywin]

I do as well, but I think he's alive in one form or another, so I think we'll see him again, as Syrio.

It is important to the author that we did not see him die. Whether that is because GRRM is going to bring him back, or because he just likes to leave things hanging out there for us to talk about and think about still remains to be seen.

 

[The Imp]

I do as well, but I think he's alive in one form or another, so I think we'll see him again, as Syrio.

It is important to the author that we did not see him die. Whether that is because GRRM is going to bring him back, or because he just likes to leave things hanging out there for us to talk about and think about still remains to be seen.

Well, if the book was written this year, say as part of a new series, and GRRM had a history of doing that kind of stuff (which I don't think he does btw) I'd say it's possible, but he wrote that in what when the internet didn't have the pervasive influence that it does today. I beleive we didn't see a body is because Syrio wasn't killed.

There are various thrweads on this forum which talk about Syrio and Jaqan being one and the same, about how Bronn beat Ser Egan relates to Syrio and Ser Trant, how Syrio had already disptached the 4 morons with Trant and could have grabbed one of their weapons, how Syrio happens to appear in the book around the same time that Jaqan might have, etc. etc. It makes for good crackpot reading.

 

[Timba]

Well, if the book was written this year, say as part of a new series, and GRRM had a history of doing that kind of stuff (which I don't think he does btw) I'd say it's possible, but he wrote that in what when the internet didn't have the pervasive influence that it does today. I beleive we didn't see a body is because Syrio wasn't killed.

There are various thrweads on this forum which talk about Syrio and Jaqan being one and the same, about how Bronn beat Ser Egan relates to Syrio and Ser Trant, how Syrio had already disptached the 4 morons with Trant and could have grabbed one of their weapons, how Syrio happens to appear in the book around the same time that Jaqan might have, etc. etc. It makes for good crackpot reading.

I really need to find the time to read the forum more fully. Hard to pull myself away from books but there is something addicting about this forum and the whole idea of Syrio still being alive (which never occurred to me) is really intriguing.

 

[Tywin]

Hmm, I'd never thought of the possible connection between Syrio and Jaqan. I would love to dismiss it as too hokey for my tastes, but I would have to point out that in the HBO series Syrio's dialogue was expanded and he seemed to talk a lot more about death in a way that seemed a lot like what the faceless men taught.

 

[Needle]

Hmm, I'd never thought of the possible connection between Syrio and Jaqan. I would love to dismiss it as too hokey for my tastes, but I would have to point out that in the HBO series Syrio's dialogue was expanded and he seemed to talk a lot more about death in a way that seemed a lot like what the faceless men taught.

Yes, in the series, when they come for Arya Syrio says to her (this is not an ezact quote, but pretty close) "What do we say to death when he comes for us?" Reply "Not today."

 

[The Imp]

Hmm, I'd never thought of the possible connection between Syrio and Jaqan. I would love to dismiss it as too hokey for my tastes, but I would have to point out that in the HBO series Syrio's dialogue was expanded and he seemed to talk a lot more about death in a way that seemed a lot like what the faceless men taught.

Well, to be fair, Syrio is from Braavos, so that way of talking may be something they all do. I wouldn't read into that a whole lot.

If you look back at older threads you;ll find some discussions of the possibility. The biggest problem I remember anyone having was with the timeline, although I didn't see that as being a problem.