Glamorous Melisandre [ADWD SPOILERS]

[chairface]

I finally have a theory that's good enough to post here! In short, I think that Melisandre's outward appearance is a glamor.

Evidence:

1. There's no way we're done with glamors. The whole Rattleshirt-is-Mance thing was revealed too quickly and without much consequence to be The Reason for introducing this plot device. This is the first thing that made me think more deeply about why this whole glamor thing was introduced.

2. Mance's glamor is connected to a ruby at his wrist that pulses and glows. Melisandre has a similar ruby at her throat, and we know of no other Red Priest or Priestess with something similar.

3. The mysterious voices from Mel's past include a man calling "Lot Seven", which suggested to me that Melisandre was (is?) a slave - Tyrion hears lot numbers being called out in a similar fashion when he is sold. Every slave Red Priest we've seen has slave tatoos, but Melisandre has none.

4. This is weak, but since we met Melisandre, we have been reminded at length that she is almost impossibly beautiful. It would be an interesting twist if she really wasn't.

Thoughts, opinions, scathing rebuttal?

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

I finally have a theory that's good enough to post here! In short, I think that Melisandre's outward appearance is a glamor.

Evidence:

1. There's no way we're done with glamors. The whole Rattleshirt-is-Mance thing was revealed too quickly and without much consequence to be The Reason for introducing this plot device. This is the first thing that made me think more deeply about why this whole glamor thing was introduced.

2. Mance's glamor is connected to a ruby at his wrist that pulses and glows. Melisandre has a similar ruby at her throat, and we know of no other Red Priest or Priestess with something similar.

3. The mysterious voices from Mel's past include a man calling "Lot Seven", which suggested to me that Melisandre was (is?) a slave - Tyrion hears lot numbers being called out in a similar fashion when he is sold. Every slave Red Priest we've seen has slave tatoos, but Melisandre has none.

4. This is weak, but since we met Melisandre, we have been reminded at length that she is almost impossibly beautiful. It would be an interesting twist if she really wasn't.

Thoughts, opinions, scathing rebuttal?

One, three and four are interesting. However, I cannot rebut them because I have not read aDwD yet. I can comment on number two, though. That red ruby was the cause for the poison that maester Cressen gave her in the prologue of the second book not being effective. I'm not saying it can be both, but that was the most obvious use of that gem.

 

[chairface]

I think you'll like #2 better once you read it - the two rubies are definitely connected, and Mance hasn't had to survive any poisoning attempts.

Also, regarding #3, I somehow forgot that Melisandre's POV explicitly says that she was a slave at the red temple.

 

[Ursa major]

One, three and four are interesting. However, I cannot rebut them because I have not read aDwD yet. I can comment on number two, though. That red ruby was the cause for the poison that maester Cressen gave her in the prologue of the second book not being effective. I'm not saying it can be both, but that was the most obvious use of that gem.

Perhaps the entity that the glamour, driven by the red ruby, is hiding is not affected by the poison Cressen was using. Perhaps only the image created by the glamour drank the poison, but the actual entity didn't.

However, without giving too much away, there's a touch of prestidigitation to Melisandre's performance that doesn't really fit comfortably with someone or something able to maintain a different form year in, year out, so I'm not yet persuaded of Chairface's hypothesis).

 

[Brian G Turner]

I think it's a good theory - but the question is, if a glamour, then *who* is using it? Anyone of importance? Anyone we're familiar with?

 

[Mesanna]

I keep thinking of those faces that the kindly man showed Arya. This is obviously how the Faceless Men change their identity. Could Mel maybe be doing something similar?

 

[chairface]

I had the impression that what they do in the House of Black and White is somewhat more grisly than what was done to Mance (and I assume Melisandre), but no less magical.

Brian, I think your question is a good one. I had started out assuming that this was Mel's own glamour. However, she at least used to be a slave. Is she a slave still, and if so, who does she belong to? Very interesting to think that someone might be pulling her strings.

Incidentally, I don't have my copy of ACOK near me, but does the description of Lightbringer include a prominent ruby?

 

[The Imp]

I had the impression that what they do in the House of Black and White is somewhat more grisly than what was done to Mance (and I assume Melisandre), but no less magical.

Brian, I think your question is a good one. I had started out assuming that this was Mel's own glamour. However, she at least used to be a slave. Is she a slave still, and if so, who does she belong to? Very interesting to think that someone might be pulling her strings.

Incidentally, I don't have my copy of ACOK near me, but does the description of Lightbringer include a prominent ruby?

There was no mention of a large glowing ruby that I can remember. There is also doubt as to whether or not the sword that Stannis has is really Lightbringer.

 

[Sleepless]

From what I recall, IMHO its definitely not Lighbringer, which brought a different kind of light in that it grew hot in battle or something rather than shining with a cold light.

Another thought about Mel being a glamour, I recall from ADWD that she appeared as that wildling girl to Jon at one point, although he thought he was just confused, suggesting she can alter appearances at will.

 

[chairface]

There was no mention of a large glowing ruby that I can remember. There is also doubt as to whether or not the sword that Stannis has is really Lightbringer.

Well, yes - by "Lightbringer" I meant, "the sword that glows and stuff but is obviously a fake, but is nevertheless called Lightbringer"

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

Excellent theory! I think you may be right.

It was great to get her POV in this book. Really "fleshed her out" for me.

Even more curious is to why she mentioned "a bag of fingerbones" as being helpful in maintaining a good glamour. Like the bag Davos had but lost... hmmm....

 

[Ursa major]

Even more curious is to why she mentioned "a bag of fingerbones" as being helpful in maintaining a good glamour. Like the bag Davos had but lost... hmmm....

I didn't think I was skimming when I read the book, but I missed that completely.

Yes, very curious.

 

[No One]

This is such a good theory that even if it isn't currently true, it could have GRRM thinking "Hmm, interesting..."

Here's a random thought - what if the gemstone at Melisandre's neck had nothing to do with guarding her against the attempted poisoning? What if it wouldn't have affected her anyway - say, because she's undead! - and the gem merely maintains her glamour?

 

[Ursa major]

She may not be undead as such, but she doesn't need to eat food, so may no longer be completely human. The power to which she has access** is restricted***, however, otherwise Stannis wouldn't have had to lose so much life-force (for want of a better term) when Mel gave birth to those two shadows of his.


** - Which seems to live within her.

*** - This may have been a consequence of the timing of those birthings, when magic was weaker than it is now. And Mel herself has noted that her power is greater now she's at the Wall. Whether this is the same effect, but with two explanations, or whether Mel is benefitting from two independent increases in power, it's hard to say.

 

[No One]

Hm, I'd forgotten about the not-eating part. Yikes, could be onto something here...(he says half seriously).

While I agree she needn't be undead, I'd love to see Stannis' reaction if she was...

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

Man, I tried so hard to pay attention during my read, and yet I still feel I have missed so much.

She may not be undead as such, but she doesn't need to eat food, so may no longer be completely human.

I had forgotten this and just finished the story last night!

Even more curious is to why she mentioned "a bag of fingerbones" as being helpful in maintaining a good glamour. Like the bag Davos had but lost... hmmm....

Do you remember which chapter this was in? I completely missed this.

 

[devilsgrin]

i can't believe that Mel would be undead... she's too Alive for that.... whilst she doesn't need to eat, it could very well be part of the power she is accessing, that it provides her body with all it needs to live. Throw in, it seems to mention that this situation is mostly tied into how much MORE powerful she is at The Wall than anywhere else.

She's definitely a slave - all the priests of the Red Temple are.

Interestingly enough, i suspect SHE had Davos' fingerbones. He no longer has them afterall. Could be that Jon may end up with a new face - for a while...

I keep thinking of those faces that the kindly man showed Arya. This is obviously how the Faceless Men change their identity. Could Mel maybe be doing something similar?

for certain Melisandre would say that the Faceless Men are agents and tools of The Other... professional jealousy of course - their changes are more than plays on light.

 

[Mesanna]

Wasn't there something also about the red priest that Victarion meets having been in the water for several days (i.e. he should have been dead)? I wondered if that was the power of R'hllor sustaining him throughout his ordeal.

 

[Needle]

I have a question: If all the priests of Rhallor are slaves (and it appears as if they are) Slaves purchased by and belonging to whom? I don't think Rhallor himself is putting up the cash. Slaves would not themselves be allowed to have slaves, would they? So slaves of whom really??

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Slaves of the temple? I assume it is the temple as an entity that buys the slaves. They are sure to be wealthy from donations of the faithful.

As for Melisandre, I think the same power that has bleached her skin and burnt her hair and keeps her nourished must also keep her young. I think there is a lot about her that isn't natural. Remember, Moqorro is said to be unnaturally dark, black as pitch or charred wood. I think there's must be a great many more secrets to these two than we can guess at right now. Also curious is why some priests of R'hllor have these sorcerous powers, but not all do. Perhaps they are both members of some sub-order.