Done dancing and my feet hurt.... my thoughts SPOILERS

[The Imp]

Also my ears hurt from the damn headphones clamping down on them for the past week or so.


I just have to say that my self imposed exile to avoid spoilers (ever since the Amazon-Germany debacle made me really appreciate how mcuh I love this board.

As for the book

I'm somewhat disappointed, but I overall liked it. One of the things that stands out most for me is how many plotlines and characters are still left up in the air. The potential POVs for TWOW are (add any I miss)

Jon
Melisandre
Arya
Sansa
Bran
Rickon
Tyrion
Cersei
Jaime
Aegon
Dany
Victarian
Samwell
Theon (?)
Dorne in some form
The Others (or is that part of Bran???)

I don't see how GRRM will be able to resolve enough of those in the next book in order to finish with a seventh. Maybe I just need to remember that most of ADWD happens in parallel with AFFC, and it would be unreasonable to expect a real funneling effect going into TWOW. I try to remain optimistic, but the glass is just barely half full, and there's always evaporation to take into account

I felt a bit cheated with Aegon showing up out of nowhere. That and Ramsy's letter to Jon felt very much like GRRM used Deus Ex Machina, at least more so that any time before. I liked the Melisandre POV, and I think that it's VERY clear that it's Jon the is actually Azor Ahai reborn. I liked the BFS POV. Ned Stark DID father a ******* with Ashara Dayne, but it was a girl. There's little room for doubt that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

I loved the Arya chapters as much as i dislied what GRRM did with Dany. It seemed very contrived that she would choose to remain in Meereen. Also, what was she thinking, bringing her people in among where there was Bloody Flox?I feel ambivilant about what he did with Tyrion, although it seems clear that he will end up joining Dany and go to Westeros with her. The Victarion plotline felt like a usless appendage. Just my humble opinion.

I think The Kindly Man MIGHT have been Syrio.

BTW, I KNEW that it was the real Horn of Joramun that Mance had. I still say that Sam has the real horn, which was found long ago in the buried cloak that contained the dragonglass daggers and arrowheads. Or could it be the one that victarian has? I'll stick with the less obvious choice. While i do get points for that, i lose points for my Ned Stark is alive theory. Oh well, it sounded good at least


Oerall i give the book a slightly better rating than AFFC, but would rank it lower than AGOT, ACOK and ASOS.

I'm going to do a re-read soon, and go at a much slower pace. i also have to read everything you guys have said, but I wanted to get these thoughts down first.

 

[The Imp]

This should probably be put in the sticked thread. Ior not

 

[Tansy]

I've always thought the stash Jon found with obsidian daggers and the horn was the real Horn of Winter and Mace's was a fake

Overall I pretty much felt the same as you have outlined above, I'm still a little flat about the whole thing.

On the note about Melissandre's vision of Azhor Ahai, wasn't the Golden Company's banners or mascots skulls? I was thinking when she see's Jon surrounded by skulls did that meet he was going to meet up with the mercenaries at some point?

I'm thinking I am going to read the last two books in parallel and see if that gives me a different perspective

 

[thaddeus6th]

I've just finished.

Mixed feelings. It took me a while to get back into it (probably unsurprising given the enormous scale). I was surprised by the introduction of Aegon and Connington, and by the fact that I enjoyed the Daenerys and Tyrion sections a bit less than I thought I would. The story did move along but gradually, and instead of concluding storylines a few more were added.

As you did, I enjoyed the Epilogue, but the numerous deaths/apparent deaths at the end and the absence of a firm conclusion for any of the main three characters (unless Jon is properly dead) was a shame. However, it was a good read and I hope the next book comes out more quickly.

Incidentally, cheers for pointing out Jon's parents. I would've missed that otherwise.

 

[Ursa major]

I think The Kindly Man MIGHT have been Syrio.

It never occurred to me that the Kindly Man might be Syrio. What made you think that he could be?

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

I felt a bit cheated with Aegon showing up out of nowhere. That and Ramsy's letter to Jon felt very much like GRRM used Deus Ex Machina, at least more so that any time before

Except that Aegon's a fake and the letter is (mostly) a lie. I am absolutely convinced of both those things.

 

[Ursa major]

I really want a good explanation of the letter, and why it says what it does in the way that it does, in TWoW.

Having said that, GRRM didn't need something so intriguing (pun not intended) to light the match of Bowen's treachery; so I think the letter is more than simply an example of deus ex machina. And I don't think it's presence is merely there to generate thousands of posts while we're waiting for TWoW. Given those assumptions, thetre must be a lot more to it.

 

[thaddeus6th]

Hmmm. Could argue that Jon's the traitor. The Night Watch is not meant to involve itself in political disputes, after all.

 

[The Imp]

I've always thought the stash Jon found with obsidian daggers and the horn was the real Horn of Winter and Mace's was a fake

Overall I pretty much felt the same as you have outlined above, I'm still a little flat about the whole thing.

On the note about Melissandre's vision of Azhor Ahai, wasn't the Golden Company's banners or mascots skulls? I was thinking when she see's Jon surrounded by skulls did that meet he was going to meet up with the mercenaries at some point?

I'm thinking I am going to read the last two books in parallel and see if that gives me a different perspective

I thought btw that the insight into the mind of Melisandre was fascinating. She clearly beleives in what she is doing, beleive in the righteousness of her God, and doesn't seem to be anything other than what she has presented herself as in previous books.

 

[Needle]

First let me say glad to have you back Imp, you were missed! I need someone to point out my most foolish statements!

I have other posts up so some of this is a repeat but then again if you repeat something enough it becomes true right!?

I felt a bit cheated with Aegon showing up out of nowhere.

Totally agree here. Always kinda hoped that he was alive but this feels pushed and unreal to me. If he is false though the dragons will know.

I liked the Melisandre POV, and I think that it's VERY clear that it's Jon the is actually Azor Ahai reborn.

No arguments here. He is, I'm sure of it, to quote the raven King! Snow! Jon Snow!

I liked the BFS POV. Ned Stark DID father a ******* with Ashara Dayne, but it was a girl. There's little room for doubt that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

So glad to finally get BFS's view! Had hoped for a little more back story from him, but I agree that it pretty much nails down R+L=J for me too.

I loved the Arya chapters as much as i dislied what GRRM did with Dany.

Can I give an Amen here! Loved, loved, loved Arya (I always do but that's besides the point!.) Dany on the other hand, just disgusted with her, I have said it before and will say it again- chaining and basically ignoring the dragons, are you freaking kidding me!! She was probably my favorite after Arya, now I just don't think she ever will be again! I have to wonder if that was GRRM's purpose? Is he going to kill her off as some seem to think?

I feel ambivilant about what he did with Tyrion

I too was disappointed here. I was so pleased to get him back, but then he just kinda ran around in circles, really got nowhere.

One question Imp- did you leave out my biggest complaint on purpose?!
I am gonna copyright this phrase- JAIME/BRIENNE WTF? Why include them at all, just to tic me off I guess, and that's all I'm gonna say about that!!

 

[Ursa major]

I don't think you're going to get much traction with something about Jaime and Brienne Wandering Through the Forest....

​

 

[The Imp]

First let me say glad to have you back Imp, you were missed! I need someone to point out my most foolish statements!

I have other posts up so some of this is a repeat but then again if you repeat something enough it becomes true right!?


Totally agree here. Always kinda hoped that he was alive but this feels pushed and unreal to me. If he is false though the dragons will know.


No arguments here. He is, I'm sure of it, to quote the raven King! Snow! Jon Snow!


So glad to finally get BFS's view! Had hoped for a little more back story from him, but I agree that it pretty much nails down R+L=J for me too.


Can I give an Amen here! Loved, loved, loved Arya (I always do but that's besides the point!.) Dany on the other hand, just disgusted with her, I have said it before and will say it again- chaining and basically ignoring the dragons, are you freaking kidding me!! She was probably my favorite after Arya, now I just don't think she ever will be again! I have to wonder if that was GRRM's purpose? Is he going to kill her off as some seem to think?


I too was disappointed here. I was so pleased to get him back, but then he just kinda ran around in circles, really got nowhere.

One question Imp- did you leave out my biggest complaint on purpose?!
I am gonna copyright this phrase- JAIME/BRIENNE WTF? Why include them at all, just to tic me off I guess, and that's all I'm gonna say about that!!

Thanks for the welcome back Needle.

I thought he threw the Jaime/Brienne thing in to keep everyone guessing but make it absolutely clear that there's something to guess. As if there was ever any doubt.

on second thought, yes, i agree. WTF????

 

[The Imp]

Except that Aegon's a fake and the letter is (mostly) a lie. I am absolutely convinced of both those things.

I'll go along with Ramsey's letter being a lie, but I'll need some convincing that Aegon is a fake. it's tough to create violet eyes without contacts, unless you're a faceless Man. i'm very interested to hear your agruments, as i always respect your opinion.

 

[The Imp]

It never occurred to me that the Kindly Man might be Syrio. What made you think that he could be?

It was something about the way he was attacking Arya when he came to her in her room. I thought at first it WAS Syrio, but Arya saw The Kindly Man through tghe eyes of the cat. Maybe it was the way that Dotrice rad it, perhaps the voice he used.

 

[Needle]

It was something about the way he was attacking Arya when he came to her in her room. I thought at first it WAS Syrio, but Arya saw The Kindly Man through tghe eyes of the cat. Maybe it was the way that Dotrice rad it, perhaps the voice he used.

I have to say that my first thought when someone was hitting Arya was Syrio. just didn't connect that it was Kindly man, I knew it was but guess I was distracted by the cat thing! I had been saying that even if she stayed blind she would see through other eyes, maybe I was feeling so proud to be right I missed the best part of the scene!

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

I'll go along with Ramsey's letter being a lie, but I'll need some convincing that Aegon is a fake. it's tough to create violet eyes without contacts, unless you're a faceless Man. i'm very interested to hear your agruments, as i always respect your opinion.

I'd direct you here rather than simply repeat myself.

I also realized I missed Moqorro's vision in the flames:

"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros... "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

there's a lot of false dragon imagery floating around out there and Aegon (Faekegon?) seems like the most likely candidate. Happy to hear why I'm wrong, but it'll take some convincing.

 

[The Imp]

I have to say that my first thought when someone was hitting Arya was Syrio. just didn't connect that it was Kindly man, I knew it was but guess I was distracted by the cat thing! I had been saying that even if she stayed blind she would see through other eyes, maybe I was feeling so proud to be right I missed the best part of the scene!

That she |saw| The Kindly Man through the eyes of the cat didn't come out until a bit later. he was asking her what she had learned that day. She told him she knew it was he who hit her, he asked her how she knew, she thought to herself "if he can have secrets so can I"

 

[Tansy]

Or maybe he is just skilled in the Bravos way of fighting? Surely all Bravosi use this style?

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

I liked the Melisandre POV, and I think that it's VERY clear that it's Jon the is actually Azor Ahai reborn.

Hmm...I figured it was Dany, give she was born of smoke/salt and awoke the dragons from stone!

Also - Ashara turned to a "Stark"; which one we dont know. Given the previous revelation from Barbrey Dustin that Brandon was a bit of a player and "took what he wanted" I figured there is a good possibility the stillborn daughter was Brandon's. To me the book didnt really clarify much of anything in regards to R+L=J.

I do find it interesting though that even Barristan blames the tourney for what happened next and not the supposed "love" Rhaegar had for Lyanna. He was VERY clear about that in his POV and Ned as well blamed the blue roses and NOT R & L themselves. Its a subtle difference I know, but why blame the roses and the tourney outcome? If Rhaegar wanted Lyanna, he would have done what he had done anyway regardless. There is still something we dont know.

 

[No One]

Besides still digesting the book I'm just having trouble soaking up everyone's thoughts and organising a response!

Imp - I somewhat agree on your initial Tyrion points, but I think we have to factor in that GRRM has never stopped world-building, establishing Westeros before moving steadily eastward. Tyrion has been fulfilling a similar role to that of Arya and Brienne before him - seeing and living through the consequences of other characters' decisions; providing a fuller view of what's going on outside of Meereen.

I could see where it might be argued that Tyrion is too important a character to reduce to that, especially at this stage of the narrative, but it can't be said that GRRM hasn't been consistent on that score.

As for Dany, I agree that chaining up the dragons struck me as an uncharacteristic move. After some thought however, I guess there was nothing else she could do - dragons will be dragons! And Quentyn's last chapter was a cracker (I'm sure there'll be justifiable repercussions, so that Quentyn's thread wasn't wholly without purpose).

FYI - I know I'm addressing points now that you may have not necessarily brought up, but I'm on a splurge and need to keep going

Back to Dany, I think it's become clear just how much the meereenese knot caused problems for GRRM. I can't remember which of us said it (sorry) but someone noted before the book's release that GRRM may only solve the knot by staggering aspects of it to avoid the lump sum delivery. There's definitely evidence of that and has probably contributed to the feeling that more could've been achieved, especially given the number of chapters focused in and around Meereen. That said, there has never been a guarantee - as likely as it seems - that Dany will even reach Westeros.

My chief concern now is that we could reach the end of the series and feel like more could've been done with some characters (was very surprised that Bran only had the 3 ((?)) chapters and, of course, would've loved to see just ONE more Arya chapter). I know that sounds like an odd thing to say, but it's consistent with how I've felt at points throughout the series - that the plot is so vast that each character can only have so much page time. No one ever said that this level of epic plotting was an optimal format for certain details of storytelling, but clearly it's worked spectacularly and mind-bogglingly well for the most part.

One final point to the long list of characters still to deal with: Winter is Coming!