Tolkien and agrarianism

Elflock, I remember, from when I lived in southern Oregon, that goats eat poison oak, and it's believed that if you consume their milk this will reduce your sensitivity to that notorious plant. I had a friend who fought fires or worked with controlled fires during the summer, and he consumed goat milk for this reason, or so I seem to remember.
 
Yes,I think I've heard of that...or something similar regarding poisonous plants and goats.
 
I suspect the meat-eating aspect is just because in the 1950s vegetarianism hadn't really caught on to the degree it has here, and probably just seemed a bit weird (also, the meat may have been of better quality and farmed in a more wholesome way than now).

It is probably time that someone mentioned that rural enthusiast and vegetarian-hater George Orwell, whose essay "Some Thoughts on the Common Toad" discusses the relationship between industry and the land. Orwell appears to have had a conservationalist streak, for want of a better word, and provides an interesting contrast to the tory-squire outlook of Tolkien.

http://www.george-orwell.org/Some_Thoughts_on_the_Common_Toad/0.html
 
I hope everyone will read the Orwell essay that Toby has posted -- or read it again. Go ahead, read it again!

The socialist Orwell and the conservative Tolkien obviously had much in common here, and that supports a point I made in one or two earlier postings. Clearly Orwell did not feel that, in his circle, there was much support for this matter that, for him, was important. In the same way, conservatives like me (I'm far from being the only one) don't find much support for this priority in the American political party that supposedly reflects our conservative interests.

I actually think there is room for the emergence of a new party that would put these "crunchy" issues forward (see earlier post) and in which people who might differ a lot on some other things could find real affinity. Who knows? Agreeing about much of importance already, they might find ways to deal with their remaining and important differences. I'm not sure that I'm advocating a "third party" -- perhaps it would be better if the Democrats like this stayed Democrat and the Republicans like this stayed Republican -- if they were able to influence their respective parties.

Not to sound too optimistic, though. I suspect this sort of scenario won't come to pass at all quickly. In the meantime, we can do as Orwell advises and even, to some extent, as Tolkien implies, with the freedom and communities that we have.... and work on from there.

Incidentally, Orwell mentions seeing a kestrel (aka sparrowhawk). We seem to be having an unusual number of them this year. I could take you to a park a block or so from where I live and you could listen to them whistling at each other and see them flying. Indeed, I'm pretty sure I had one in one of my crabapple trees yesterday evening. Perhaps they are devouring the frogs and toads that I see in our area.
 
Incidentally, Orwell mentions seeing a kestrel (aka sparrowhawk).

Oooh, not "aka" where I come from. Not only different species, but different families.

Well, my teenage ornithological obsession has to be good for something :)


(Edit: apparently the American kestrel is called a sparrowhawk. Madness!)
 
Yes, that's very similar to a European kestrel (and yes, a good pic). The Eurasian sparrowhawk is very different.

Now I'm wondering which one Ursula le Guin had in mind for Ged's other name in the Earthsea books. I might have to rethink everything!
 
Yes, that's very similar to a European kestrel (and yes, a good pic). The Eurasian sparrowhawk is very different.

Now I'm wondering which one Ursula le Guin had in mind for Ged's other name in the Earthsea books. I might have to rethink everything!



Considering that I intend to teach this book next year, that's an especially interesting question. I imagine Le Guin would rather answer it rather than being asked again, "Where do you get your ideas?"

I'll check her website and see if she takes questions.
 
Doesn't look like there's a place at Ms. Le Guin's site for emailing questions, but she has a snail mail address & I am sending a brief query thence this afternoon. If I find out anything, you'll know.
 
Ursula Le Guin has kindly responded to my query about Ged / Sparrowhawk, which I made in response to HareBrain's comment.

She writes:

"It's the common Archipelagan sparrowhawk -- no Linnaean name, because Linnaeus didn't get to Earthsea, but I think he might have called it Falco sparverius Terramaris."

Since the American sparrowhawk or kestrel, that beautiful bird, is Falco sparverius, I think we would be safe in imagining this as the sparrowhawk that Ms. Le Guin had in mind, rather than the European sparrowhawk (Accipiter nisus).

She adds: "The Kargish sparrowhawk is a little larger, and adapted to desert conditions."

My thanks to Ursula Le Guin for her answer and to HareBrain for the question!
 
Keep in mind that Tolkien was reacting against something he had a lot of qualms about - the modern world, in particular the horrors of the second world war, something nobody seems to have thought to mention (that I’ve noted), and a large driver to his thoughts. The Shire's not meant to be taken literally. Tolkien was never that naive. It's the counterpoint to the despoilment made evident at the end of TLOTR, at their return, and what’s marked by the end of innocence when Gandalf, et al, leave from Grey Haven. The social order’s simply an expression of his times, little more than the fabric of Tolkien’s own world then – not ours now. It has to be understood in terms of its own time.

As to sustainability, well, at current population levels (human not hobbit) there’s not a cat in hell’s chance. Whatever return to pre-industrialised methods you may countenance, none of them stand even a remote chance without massive human population reduction and withering curtailment of resource consumption. But, as all life, through evolution itself, is incapable of accepting any truths other than blind faith in survival then this just ain’t going to come about, now is it, like, who’s going to volunteer we even make mention of mass human culling – gads, that ain’t what the survival imperative’s all about. Hence, de facto extinction. But hey, it’s been fun whilst it’s lasted!

So, can we now get back to discussing literature, something we can at least get our heads around and has little environmental impact?
 
So, can we now get back to discussing literature, something we can at least get our heads around and has little environmental impact?


There must be hundreds of literary discussion threads available to you at Chrons if this particular one makes you uncomfortable.

You could even start a thread yourself.

This thread been dormant for nearly a month till you revived it with your comment, so perhaps you didn't need to grumble about "getting back to discussing literature..."
 
My apologies Extollager, my comment you quote was somewhat tongue in cheek as I'd actually really enjoyed the thread, and hence why I'd felt the urge to reply. I'm sorry if it came over otherwise - maybe I should have added a smiley.

Being new to the forum I was just digging around to find out what topics were of interest and came across that one. Is there any generally accepted policy on this board about not reviving old threads? I don't want to upset people unnecessarily.
 
Being new to the forum I was just digging around to find out what topics were of interest and came across that one. Is there any generally accepted policy on this board about not reviving old threads? I don't want to upset people unnecessarily.

There is no problem about reviving a thread! But it seemed you were reviving it only to say: "Here's my view, now everybody shut up and let's move on.":)

Your objection to agrarianism on the basis of feeding the world's billions is actually a familiar one, and various authorities, such as Wendell Berry, have addressed it. I won't attempt to summarize them here. In a sentence, many people, I among them for what my opinion as an English teacher is worth, believe that a gradual reform of agriculture, in which food needs would be met but things like government subsidies of industrial ag would be phased out, and which would be of real benefit to soil conservation, crop diversity and food security, is possible.
 
I am sorry if I came across as so arrogant. I assure you it wasn't intended but I apologise anyway. Perhaps I got carried away a little and forgot myself. The topic was, I should have made clear at the time, so engrossing and a facet of LOTR that I'd never come across before.

I think the dig at my own diatribe, for that's what I was actually referring to, got a little lost in my inexpertly applied self-irony.


As to the argument in hand I'm afraid I still see our exponential population growth as an insurmountable hurdle if left uncorrected. It is only my studied opinion, of course, but one in concord with a number of leading minds in the field such as James Lovelock.
 
As to the argument in hand I'm afraid I still see our exponential population growth as an insurmountable hurdle if left uncorrected. It is only my studied opinion, of course, but one in concord with a number of leading minds in the field such as James Lovelock.


Actually -- and this is a separate topic from agrarianism -- the population growth situation is a little different from what you usually hear. In much of the world, the rate of new births has, in fact, fallen precipitately, such that overall real population growth isn't as big as it seems. Where the projected numbers are coming from, has to do with old people living longer. Longer, but, of course, not forever; and not having any more children. Since people are having fewer babies in much of the world, I would suppose that, eventually, as so many older people die, world population will decline somewhat. I'm not intending to minimize the predicament of impoverished parts of the world* where people are having many children, or the question of how they will be fed. Does my point about population growth make sense, though? I read something on this, from a good source, just this week, but I look at so many things that I don't now remember where it was. It seemed to me a striking observation and one whose implications probably need to be worked out more publicly.

*Incidentally, according to some "radical" critics, some of these same places are victimized by practices of industrial agriculture:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0896086070/?tag=brite-21
 

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