Jeyne Westerling.

[dragonstone]

Apologies if there's already a thread on this but I did a search and couldn't see one.

Is the girl that Jaime sees at the end of AFFC really Jeyne Westerling? Catelyn's description differs greatly - the most obvious point being her hips, Jaime saying they're narrow and Catelyn emphasises how wide they are. Also Jaime states she's not all that pretty although Catelyn's perception is the opposite. Could she be pregnant and have escaped with the Blackfish? Perhaps the girl Jaime sees is her younger sister who helped her to escape (Jaime says she looks young, has small breasts and slender hips - indicating she may be younger than the real Jeyne). If this were her younger sister and she had helped Jeyne escape this might indicate why the girl is treated so harshly be her mother. IMO there is simply too much emphasis on hip-width for this simply to be an error by GRRM.

 

[juleska]

I remember thinking the same thing when he made the hip comment, but I didn't consider that she may have escaped somewhere. That would sure explain a lot about how stubbornly Blackfish held Riverrun. I suppose if (ADWD spoiler) we could make it 2/3 thru the series thinking that Baby Aegon was really dead, this could definitely be possible. It does make me happy to think that Robb may have left an heir behind after all.

 

[Koopa]

Jeyne has got sisters?

Well, it might be possible, but the girl (the sister) must be a good actress then. Cause the scene between her and Jaime was quite a convincing show that it was indeed Jeyne.

 

[Needle]

I did not catch this one but I think you may be on to something here. Jeyne may well have escaped with the Blackfish. It would throw off the searchers too, they may completely overlook a man and women together.

I am pretty sure Jeyne has a younger sister, and she may not have had to act too much, I think Mrs. W is quite the you know.

 

[dragonstone]

I did not catch this one but I think you may be on to something here. Jeyne may well have escaped with the Blackfish. It would throw off the searchers too, they may completely overlook a man and women together.

I am pretty sure Jeyne has a younger sister, and she may not have had to act too much, I think Mrs. W is quite the you know.

They were my thoughts too. Jaime says she has breasts the size of apples - small breasts may equal early puberty? Think back to when you were around 12 or 13 - if you had a bitch of a mom and she was scolding you harshly (I think Jaime notes a bruise on her face) you'd probably cry too...

 

[The Imp]

The younger sister is named Eleyna

 

[dragonstone]

I just looked her sister up: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Elenya_Westerling Aged 12 it says. So that fits - she looks youngish - she is young.

 

[Koopa]

As a side note, i liked the fact that Jeyne is a decendant of the First Men.
Somehow the Andals are a dissapointment to me. Dorne can thank the Rhoyne.

 

[dragonstone]

As a side note, i liked the fact that Jeyne is a decendant of the First Men.
Somehow the Andals are a dissapointment to me. Dorne can thank the Rhoyne.

The Andals seem really boring to me. I like the First men, the Rhoynar and the Valyrians (the ones that are left anyway)

 

[juleska]

I was thinking more about this theory last night and I have to say I think there is a lot of groundwork laid to support it. It's well established that people "switch babies" in this story. Baby Aegon was switched with a servant's child to save his life during Robert's rebellion. Theon used the miller's sons to fake the bodies of Bran & Rickon. Sansa is posing as Alayne. Cersei has Jeyne Poole posing as Arya. Davos was spared while another man's head sits on a spike. Mance was disguised as Rattleshirt burned.

Given the amount of characters running around with fake versions of themselves, and given the tremendous difference between Catelyn's description and Jaime's, seems rather obvious that the girl we met was not the real Queen of the North. And there would be little reason to hide her away unless she was pregnant with Robb's heir!

 

[Timba]

An intriguing idea that seems highly possible.

 

[The Imp]

So, let's assume that she is with child, and let's further assume that it's born by the next time we see her and that it's a boy. What are the implications?

Even in a united North, the great families aren't following the Queen Regent of an infant. Then there's the small issue of Robb making Jon the heir to Winterfell, which becomes much more interesting now that Jon is apparently out as LC of the Night's Watch. I think jon could unite the North, while i don't think that Jeyne's mother or any other Southerner would have a snowball's chance in Dorne. Someone (Cersei?) might try to use the babe as a way of gaining a foothold in the North, but it's not happening any more than the lilihood of the fake Arya (JP) reigning as Queen of the North.

 

[juleska]

If she is with child, which I'm 50/50 on to be honest, I don't think the babe will have much consequence except to serve as the promise of a future for the Starks.

 

[juleska]

I was thinking more about this theory last night and I have to say I think there is a lot of groundwork laid to support it. It's well established that people "switch babies" in this story. Baby Aegon was switched with a servant's child to save his life during Robert's rebellion. Theon used the miller's sons to fake the bodies of Bran & Rickon. Sansa is posing as Alayne. Cersei has Jeyne Poole posing as Arya. Davos was spared while another man's head sits on a spike. Mance was disguised as Rattleshirt burned.

Given the amount of characters running around with fake versions of themselves, and given the tremendous difference between Catelyn's description and Jaime's, seems rather obvious that the girl we met was not the real Queen of the North. And there would be little reason to hide her away unless she was pregnant with Robb's heir!

I knew I was forgetting one....

Jon also switched Mance's son with Gilly's.

 

[viZion]

So, let's assume that she is with child, and let's further assume that it's born by the next time we see her and that it's a boy. What are the implications?

Even in a united North, the great families aren't following the Queen Regent of an infant. Then there's the small issue of Robb making Jon the heir to Winterfell, which becomes much more interesting now that Jon is apparently out as LC of the Night's Watch. I think jon could unite the North, while i don't think that Jeyne's mother or any other Southerner would have a snowball's chance in Dorne. Someone (Cersei?) might try to use the babe as a way of gaining a foothold in the North, but it's not happening any more than the lilihood of the fake Arya (JP) reigning as Queen of the North.

The only other way I can think of where Jeyne's child might matter is if Stannis wins the North and eventually the Kingdom. You know how he is about rightful heirs and succession...

 

[Culhwch]

How much does the Blackfish truly care about the North - Robb was crowned King in the North, and also of the Riverlands, was he not? The Blackfish may use the child to rally the Riverlords.

 

[juleska]

The only other way I can think of where Jeyne's child might matter is if Stannis wins the North and eventually the Kingdom. You know how he is about rightful heirs and succession...

Right. This is one of the reasons I don't think the fact that he named Jon his heir is "a problem". To begin with, Robb thought Bran and Rickon were dead when he made that declaration, and they're not. Second, whoever gets "named" an heir doesn't always matter....ultimately such things are decided by might and custom. Robert certainly was not "heir" to the Iron Throne, he took it. And if Aegon and Dany both show up in Westeros looking to claim the iron throne, custom would decree it goes to Aegon while might would almost certainly ensure it goes to Dany. Ultimately what a potential child of Robb means is the continuation of the male line for the Starks, and the symbolic meaning of the life given for the life taken....both of which will mean quite a lot to the Northmen, whether they call Jeyne a queen or not.

 

[juleska]

How much does the Blackfish truly care about the North - Robb was crowned King in the North, and also of the Riverlands, was he not? The Blackfish may use the child to rally the Riverlords.

Blackfish was mighty loyal to his nephew, having fought bravely and won many battles for him, and was happy to call him King of the North. With his lady niece murdered, his nephew a captive of Lannisters, and his King killed and mutilated, I would think he'd love to rally the Riverlands and the North in a united cause against the Iron Throne.

 

[devilsgrin]

How much does the Blackfish truly care about the North - Robb was crowned King in the North, and also of the Riverlands, was he not? The Blackfish may use the child to rally the Riverlords.

lets be brutally honest... the Riverlands are almost irrelevant to the rest of Westeros. Considering their location, they've always been subject to one external throne or another. The North on the other hand, is the single largest kingdom in Westeros, and a king of it, is a force to be reckoned with. Brynden Tully is no fool. If he were to rally lords to a cause, the Northern lords are the better choice. The Riverlords would follow suit or not - but House Frey would be the first target of a united North/Riverlands.

 

[Culhwch]

And that I would love to see...