Ned's bones (ADWD spoiler)

[juleska]

I was just reading the "Robert Strong" thread and the speculation that Ned might be the creation that Qyburn cooked up in the basement. I don't go along with that at all, there's no evidence to support it's anyone but the Mountain. The suggestion however does bring up an interesting question....

What happened to Ned's bones? Last we heard they were headed out with the Silent Sisters bound for Winterfell....but as far as we know they never arrived. Who's got them? Why would they keep them? I've got Melisandre's comment flittering through my head....

"The bones help. The bones remember."

Will Mel or some other red priest end up using Ned's bones for a glamour at some point? Now for a REAL crackpot twist....what if "Ned" became the Valonqar?!

 

[Eulalia]

Juleska, that is an awseome crackpot theory!

Who can say, GRRM seems to like making weird believable. He uses a little magic, a little horror story, a little history a lot of surprises, and a lot of character and plot. Skeleton Ned makes as much sense as Uncat, Faceless Men or Frankengregor--it's the skill of the writer, and in George I trust.

And Ned was a younger brother, who probably doesn't like Cersei much, and whose scruples about honour may not be operational, after a stint of being (you know) dead.

Stop me, I feel a poem coming on. Something about Undead Ned's revenge. He could even be reunited with his lady love, and tell Jon the secrets around his parentage and Lyanna's fate. He could off Cersei, then have a go at Roose Bolton or Littlefinger. He doesn't seems to be a top candidate fto be a dragon rider--Alas.

 

[mtzGr]

He could even be reunited with his lady love, and tell Jon the secrets around his parentage and Lyanna's fate.

This is a bit off-topic, but you made me wonder; short of Zombie Ned, how does Jon ever learn of his true parentage? I was always assuming it would be resolved somehow (because it is a bit of a big plot point, at least where Jon's concerned), but how would the truth be brought to light if everyone's dead?

I guess I just never thought about it, because it felt like something GRRM would (and still will) resolve by the end of the series--but how? I am a bit sad.

 

[Ursa major]

This is a bit off-topic, but you made me wonder; short of Zombie Ned, how does Jon ever learn of his true parentage? I was always assuming it would be resolved somehow (because it is a bit of a big plot point, at least where Jon's concerned), but how would the truth be brought to light if everyone's dead?

I guess I just never thought about it, because it felt like something GRRM would (and still will) resolve by the end of the series--but how? I am a bit sad.

Bran might be able to tell Jon (or, at least, us).

I think that there's a pretty good chance that Ned has unburdened himself about Jon's parentage to a heart tree. At some point, Bran may overhear what Ned had said.

 

[mtzGr]

Bran might be able to tell Jon (or, at least, us).

I think that there's a pretty good chance that Ned has unburdened himself about Jon's parentage to a heart tree. At some point, Bran may overhear what Ned had said.

Great point! I wonder if they could talk to each other through the heart tree? He'd probably have to send Jon some kind of dream or something. Maybe Jon will go seek out Bran after everything is done (if Jon is still alive by the end!).

Gah, back on topic. Zombie Ned--yeah, I dig it. Looking up valonqar (because I certainly forgot what it referred to), Eddard fits the criteria so far as I can tell. It would be some sweet revenge!

 

[Ursa major]

As to the original thread....

I'm somehwat confused. The phrases

"The bones help. The bones remember."

seem to me to be somewhat misleading. Whose bones? The bones that Jon could see were the ones Rattleshirt used to wear, and which Mance was wearing as a non-magical part of the disguise. As far as I could tell, the bones helped because Rattleshirt was known as much for his form of dress as the himself, hence the name.

What the bones did not do was resurrect the form of those bones' original owner.

 

[juleska]

I'm not suggesting Zombie Ned nor that the bones will be used to recreate Ned period. Ned, as far as I'm concerned, is just simply gone. However, I am wondering if Ned's bones can be used to disguise someone else to appear as Ned. And could that person, believed to be Ned but not really, eventually become the Valonqar? Wouldn't THAT put the final nail in Cersei's coffin if the man she saw beheaded at her son's command came back to finish her off?

The idea of "Ned" (I use the quotation marks for a reason) being Cersei's killer is the true crackpot element. I don't think it's crazy that Ned's bones could be used as someone else's disguise, though. In fact as much mention was made of Ned's remains and their supposed journey to Winterfell and the fact that they never made it back makes me think that Martin still has them out there somewhere for a reason.

 

[Ursa major]

They could be used to disguise someone as another person who wore bones as clothes. But in that sense, they would be no different to wearing the copied persons clothing. Mance is made to to look like Rattleshirt, not the unfortunate original owner of the bones.

(I can't help thinking Mel said these words simply to sound more mysterious, making the wearing of particular clothing items (albeit ones made of human bones) sound part of the magic. A bit like she would when using her "magic" powders. It could be that, subconsciously, she is still not totally convinced that her greater powers are permanent, so she resorts to the sort of showmanship and mystic utterances that help make her prestidigitation seem like the real thing.)

 

[The Imp]

Bran might be able to tell Jon (or, at least, us).

I think that there's a pretty good chance that Ned has unburdened himself about Jon's parentage to a heart tree. At some point, Bran may overhear what Ned had said.

This is quite possible, but up until we learned what Bran can do in aDWD, the speculation has always been that Howland Reed will make an appearance (if he hasn't already in the form of Jojen, my personal crackpot theory) and can at least give the facts about TOJ.

BTW, in addition to Ned, one would have to believe that Lyanna also would have prayed to a weirwood. Isn't there also a Godswood in the Red Keep, where Ned met Cersei? That would open the possibility of Rahegar praying, or at least speaking to one.

 

[Ursa major]

I would far rather Howland made an appearance and spilled the beans (or Bean's ).

If Bran were to tell Jon (or just us) about Jon's parentage, I suspect it might seem a bit like deus ex machina, unless the information arose from the search for something else, something that Bran was keen on finding out.

 

[The Imp]

I would far rather Howland made an appearance and spilled the beans (or Bean's ).

If Bran were to tell Jon (or just us) about Jon's parentage, I suspect it might seem a bit like deus ex machina, unless the information arose from the search for something else, something that Bran was keen on finding out.

I agree. I think that the whole "Bran time traveling through the weirwoods" thing has to be used VERY sparingly, or it will become problematic.

 

[juleska]

They could be used to disguise someone as another person who wore bones as clothes. But in that sense, they would be no different to wearing the copied persons clothing. Mance is made to to look like Rattleshirt, not the unfortunate original owner of the bones.

True but if it were really that simple then why did it need to be Rattleshirt at all? Wouldn't any wildling have done for the sacrifice of Faux Mance? What does "the bones remember" mean? I don't think it's pure showmanship, that doesn't fit with what GRRM revealed to us about Melisandre in ADWD.

Rattleshirt wore the bones of people he slew. I think in the act of killing them, he forged a spiritual connection between himself and his prey, and by making the bones his cloak they became a part of him. Thus the bones became an extension of his own personality. If this were really about clothing, then simply throwing someone's old cloak over your shoulders and finding the nearest red priest should be enough to fool the masses. But they made a big deal about Rattleshirt's bones and the power of the disguise they provided.

GRRM also made plenty to do about Ned's bones, having left unresolved exactly where they are. How many times in the series have we, the reader, visited the crypts of Winterfell and had some character or another observe that Ned's bones never made it, and wonder what became of them?

 

[3EyedCrowsEye]

nope...Robert Strong is The Mountain That Rides...Ned wasn't half the size of Gregor and Robert Strong is the same size as the Mountain..if it isn't Gregor I'm still sure it's not Ned...His bones are dog food

 

[juleska]

nope...Robert Strong is The Mountain That Rides...Ned wasn't half the size of Gregor and Robert Strong is the same size as the Mountain..if it isn't Gregor I'm still sure it's not Ned...His bones are dog food

Read my first post again. I think you misunderstood what I said.

 

[freeonrdavin]

This is a bit off-topic, but you made me wonder

 

[juleska]

Wonder what? Am I missing something?

 

[C Of K]

I have to agree with Ursa about the bones. Though I'm definitely not 100% sure. At first, I thought she used the bones to help cast some spell as well. But, upon a second reading, I think the bones are just bones. Here's the quote in question.

“The bones help,” said Melisandre. “The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man’s boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man’s shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer’s essence does not change, only his seeming.”

The bones remember would probably be read more clearly as The bones are remembered. When people see the shirt of bones, they think of Rattleshirt. It can't be helped.

The strongest glamors are built of such things, probably just means that the strongest glamors are built off of some truth, just as the best lies are built off of some truth.

When Melisandre goes onto to consider a bag of finger bones, who do we all automatically think of? Davos, of course. Any regular joe wearing a bag of finger bones could easily be mistaken for Davos, even without a glamor, in a kingdom where names and reputations are more widely recognized than faces. And the glamors seem unstable, which is why Mance needs the bones.

The last few sentences, A dead man’s boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man’s shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer’s essence does not change, only his seeming. are deceptive.

I believe Melisandre is speaking literally, and symbolically about magical shadows here. While the whispered words, and prayers, can conjure real magical shadows, the bones, boots, and hair can help to complete the disguise, further cloaking the truth in deception.She then goes on to think, The wearer... which I had automatically determined meant the wearer of the bones. Now I believe she means the wearer of the other man's shadow does not change, only his seeming.


Right or wrong, this was kind of fun. I enjoy trying to decipher strange passages way too much.

 

[TK-421]

GRRM create Robert Strong using Ned's bones? Sorry, not going to happen.

Good crackpot though.

 

[juleska]

?????

Okay this is several times that's happened now. Is this thing on?

You guys are NOT reading my post properly. Go back and re-read my first post. I am not the person suggesting that Robert Strong is Ned....someone ELSE did that in another thread entirely (which I ****completely**** disagree with). I started THIS thread because that one made me remember that we never learned what happened to Ned's bones, and made me think of Mel's comment about using bones to make a great disguise.

My theory has nothing to do with Robert Strong! Yeesh, is what I wrote really that unclear?

 

[The Imp]

?????

Okay this is several times that's happened now. Is this thing on?

You guys are NOT reading my post properly. Go back and re-read my first post. I am not the person suggesting that Robert Strong is Ned....someone ELSE did that in another thread entirely (which I ****completely**** disagree with). I started THIS thread because that one made me remember that we never learned what happened to Ned's bones, and made me think of Mel's comment about using bones to make a great disguise.

I was just reading the "Robert Strong" thread and the speculation that Ned might be the creation that Qyburn cooked up in the basement. I don't go along with that at all, there's no evidence to support it's anyone but the Mountain. The suggestion however does bring up an interesting question....

I think that was crytal clear, and i suspect that the OP in multi page threads sometimes get either ignored or not read thoroughly. I agree that the Ned is Robert Strong theory is beyond crackpot. That "guy" isn't anyone but the remains of Gregor.