Graphic Novels, what length is appropriate?

[cruggero]

I've been going back and forth with a few editors about the length of my first book in a series of four. As of now the first is nearing 600 pages in length. All subsequent issues will be of comparable length, for example the second is at 550 pages.

Is this too long? Is it nice to have a lengthy read where nothing is done without substance to the story line and/or character development?

The issue isn't whether or not the some items should be included or omitted, I've been told it should by broken into two parts, but I strongly urged that doing so would take away from the story's continuity.

What's your opinion? As I'm not much of a comic reader, I'm unaware of what page length most graphic novels hold.

 

[Mladen]

Thats far too long for a single volume, and depending on the artist, each tome will take about 2 to 3 years to illustrate, if you're lucky. Thats if you find an artist who'll be able or willing to do it. 250 pages is more reasonable, and even that is pushing it. 100 pages should be more than enough to tell a complete story, or at least a full arc (pros will do it in 48), and is the optimum length for most new books in terms of cost/price (except if you choose to do it in 18-24 page comics, which is the most cost effective).

Most publishers I've ever spoken to would never take a risk with an untested OGN, especially one at that length, since because they can ship fewer copies, they have to sell far more of them in order to improve their margin. You will find very few comics with that large a page count per volume.

I'd strongly urge that you read more comics, and look at the length and format of OGNs out there. For the same reason that nobody would attempt to write a film script without having ever seen a film, no matter how good a writer you are. Have a look at "From Hell" by Alan Moore, which has a similar page count to what you're talking about, and then compare the density of the writing to your script. Then remember that "From Hell" came out originally in short installments, then 10 volumes, all of which worked as self-contained books.

 

[BookStop]

I would definitely do some heavy editting and see if you can get each down to 500 pages, then further split those into 2 volumes at least. Mladen is right, the illustrating alone would be too time consuming. Probably why I've never seen a graphic novel so very long.

 

[cruggero]

Even with the digital art rendering they do now a days? I've seen a artist create a panel in less than 25 mins with those software programs.

I remember reading a quote from Ted Rall saying that "I don't think anyone has written a great graphic novel." I took that to heart and have been striding towards creating an epic. I wouldn't mind terribly if the book was broken into two separate volumes, but issue based installments would kill the story's flow. Maybe even a three part volume divide would work.

As a reader though, would you enjoy reading a graphic novel of that length? What would be your concerns if you saw that large a novel? Would it deter you from purchasing a copy?

Keep in mind too, that the page volume is more of a estimate; once this clears editing it's more than likely that some panels will be condensed onto different pages and trim some fat off the length. If I had to guess, it'd probably be around the 525 to 550 range.

P.S. I've read graphic novels, hmmm lets see; there's Watchmen, but I didn't like the art, Book of Eli, loved it, and quite a few of Radical's materials like Caliber and Shrapnel. I really enjoyed their style, but it seems that their artwork can muddle the story a bit with too much light and dark contrast.

 

[Metryq]

I'm not big on comic books, but I have picked up some manga series and bought Dark Horse's one-volume The Two Faces of Tomorrow (576 pages).

All of these works were released in monthly installments, first. The collected volumes are published later if the work is popular enough to warrant it. For me, the art better be worth it, or why bother? That is, digital tools facilitate greater through-put, but remember the old adage about any project:

Good. Fast. Cheap. Pick two.

Unless you, or the chief artist on your project are popular enough to sell a huge volume (meaning, get the project green-lighted to begin with), the project may have to be serialized, or build up a fan base in some other way—such as a text novel first.

I've bought "collector's editions" after the fact because the writing and art are both excellent, as in the case of Kick-Ass by Mark Millar and John Romita, Jr. If the movie had come first, I doubt the art would have been as good because the project would have been nothing more than a spin-off to ride on the movie's popularity.

Back in 1995 Italian artist Marco Patrito published a "multimedia novel" titled Sinkha. While the format did not catch on, I thought the project was fabulous—comic book-like panels with music and animated clips woven in. With e-commerce as commonplace as it is, this might be a way to facilitate distribution, as well as amp-up the attractiveness of the project. Just a thought.

 

[demos99]

Go out and buy Dave Sim's Cerebus phonebooks, all sixteen volumes of them, some 6000 pages and twenty-five years of work. Irrespective of Ted Rall's opinion (he's wrong btw) that's an epic.

600 pages is getting close to the max length that a graphic novel can be and remain manageable; Cerebus: Church & State Volume 2 rolls in at 630 pages; Volume 1 at 592 (Sim had to split them because a single volume of 1200 pages was impossible). 12-issue self-contained graphic novels like Crisis on Infinite Earths and Watchmen are between 370-410 pages long, whereas the individual volumes of collected graphic series like The Sandman or Preacher range between 160-368 pages, depending on how many issues each volume collects, In short there's no standard length for a graphic novel because the 'correct' length will vary according to the demands of the stories. James Joyce once said that Ulysses contained the precise number of words necessary to tell the story, no more, no less.

Of course, a publisher will be thinking about what the potential reader is prepared to buy. If your business is writing stories, then theirs is selling books and while publishers don't always get it right they do, usually, have some experience of the market. Remember, even a writer of Tolkien's calibre had to compromise with his publisher over The Lord of the Rings and split his magnum opus into three volumes because Unwin didn't think a 1000 page novel would sell and it didn't do his career any harm.

 

[cruggero]

Thank you all for these bits of advice.

Down to the core, all I can ultimately hope for is to have these works read, regardless of how they'd be distributed in volumes or otherwise. I don't intend for the first book to go beyond 600 pgs; I don't think it will either.

Now, that's not to say I wouldn't stand for what I believe is necessary to do the series and/or books justice. There's always an equitable compromise to be found if your willing to look. I just want to be able to voice my thoughts freely without causing detriment towards publication.

P.S. I am far from credible when it comes to validating Mr. Rall's quote. I simply found a moderately inspiring quality in it.

 

[Mladen]

Ted Rall's opinion is downright wrong.

An artist who takes 25 minutes to complete page is either exaggerating, or careless. Even pros don't work at that speed except when there's a deadline, and the end results end up looking rushed.

Its not impossible for a 600 page original graphic novel (ogn) to be published. Though it is VERY unlikely. All of the examples listed so far have first been serialised in short form (20 page comics or thereabouts).

Books which came out in longer form, in one package: have a look at: "Alice In Sunderland" by Bryan Talbot (about 400 pages), or Nicki Greenberg's "Hamlet" (about 450). Better yet, go out and BUY RIGHT NOW a book called "Blankets" by Craig Thompson, which is 600 pages and will easily be one of the best graphic novels you'll have ever read. At the time Blankets came out, Thompson was mostly unknown, so there's hope. But he's an exception to how the graphic novel publishing model works. All of those comics I listed were by one individual who handled writing and art by the way.

As for personal opinions on that length of comic...
200 pages is a comfortable sized comic to hold (its not just a length thing, comics get HEAVY over that page-count). The length (and cost) is a huge put off when I'm deciding which comic to pick up from an artist/writer I'm not familiar with. It really all depends on how dense the pages are too.

It might be worth writing one story of a normal length first. It'll get all of the storytelling kinks out, will help you get a name for yourself, you'll find it easier to get an artist/editor on board, and will increase the number of people who will pick up your long work.

 

[cruggero]

I've a few side projects in mind that would serve that purpose, but I'd call their subject matters "edgy". I feel that I should go all in with this series; put it out there and see what it warrants.

Thank you Mladen, I hope you wouldn't mind going over the script when I can post it in the critiques forum. I'll swing by my local book store and pick up that story you'd mentioned.

 

[Mladen]

Sure, would love to have a look

 

[cruggero]

My only concern is that I'm unsure which pieces of the story I should post a sampling of. The whole material is far too large to post, and I doubt many would read the whole of it. Let me explain why this is difficult.

The plot structure opens with an introduction to the protagonist at a scene nearing the end of the story as we get a rendition of his recollection as to how he came to be where he is. From there, his narration transitions to the catalyst event that drives his actions and ends to portray the event as if it is currently happening. After which, his narration picks up once more; detailing his fall into depression and self-hatred where his marriage dissolves, and he succumbs to substance abuse. Narration ends once more as we see him in his previous occupation as a firefighter. He's basically being fired for poor work performance due to his alcoholism. Before that can happen, a call comes through as there's a chemical fire that is a "calling all cars situation". These fires are very dangerous. Barring a detailed explanation, he saves a scientist during the duration of this fire. Waiting for assistance, he relaxes a bit and is blinded by a acidic chemical that bursts from a pipe. He wakes in a hospital where the scientist thanks him. The scientist is compelled to repay what he considers to be a life-debt, meaning to compensate the protagonist's heroics. The scientist's repayment is in the form of a theoretical research that utilizes nano-technology to reconstruct and repair damaged cell tissues. In contemporary times this technology is far from ready. In order for the protagonist to receive it he must consent to being placed in cryonic stasis. He does, and for three hundred years is lost to the world. During which he narrates the events of human history that have painted the futuristic setting in which the story really revolves in. Afterwords he gains his sight back, but the research had taken a more "militant" aim versus it's original intent to be used for restorative medical purposes. That's where the story really begins.

So, its not that you'd be lost, but if you don't see what really motivates the protagonist and how he's come to be; you're missing out on a key event in the character's life. The event that causes his depression is a big factor in the story.

 

[Magnus85]

Are you drawing it yourself? Are you hiring an artist, or are you going to collaborate/share ownership with an artist?

Of course dependent on the style, but generally speaking, if you're going to collaborate, expect 1 page a week, max. That means 52 pages a year. You want 600 pages, that's over 10 years of production time.

If you pay an artist a decent salary, meaning in the UK/US from £50 and up, you might get the artist to shell out say 4 - 5, maybe 6 pages a week. (Again quite dependent on style, of course.)

You want colour on top of that, double that budget. And expect a 10 - 30% longer production time.

Hope this helps on your perspective. Not meaning to squash any of your hopes, but this is reality.

- Magnus

 

[cruggero]

As far as percentages of ownership, I strongly feel that whomever and whatever number of people sign on to help form this into a published work would be equal shares. For example, one writer and one artist I'd consider 50/50 in the process. Likewise, since I believe it would take a team of artists; say four total, plus myself to sum to five, it'd divide to 20% a person.

It's industrial organization 101; people working collaboratively for equal shares to produce a quality material for the benefit of one another. Equal investment should always result in equal shares, that way everyone is motivated to complete their tasks. In my opinion writing the story is just as important as drawing it, both actively breath life into the fictional universe.

I've heard that digital art is the new hot topic in comics. This process would be the most ideal way to render the story. I've wondered if there is some kind of way to create character and/or backdrop templates so that posing and lighting becomes the true issues.

Now, these shares would be limited to the published material and whatever it is you have a hand in creating. For example, I've sent a screen play version to a fellow I just recently met through a family friend who happens to be that friend's son. He's a producer for the food network here in the U.S., and is breaking into the filming industry. My ultimate goal would be to see this story put to a movie format. At that point, if the artists would wish to help create set pieces and settings to maintain continuity from the comic to the movie that'd be awesome, but I'd expect there'd be complications only because I'm not sure how movie production works precisely.

I only want rights to the written material and what I've created; knowing where it's going and how it evolves at all times, and having a hand in that throughout its maturation.

P.S. Don't worry about my feelings. Outside opinions are fundamental to maintaining objectivity, optimists need pessimists and the like. On a lighthearted note, if people were capable of swaying my convictions I wouldn't be writing, I wouldn't have gone to college, and I wouldn't have played baseball. Besides, your worst enemy is always within.

 

[Magnus85]

Of course there should be an equal share.

I don't know you, and I don't know your body of work, but it seems like your pushing the wagon a bit too far ahead of you here.


From what I get from your posts, you seem to want a collaboration with an artist. 50/50. And what I said about production time is what you have to worry about here. Thus comes the question about style. What kind of style do you want? Could you link to some images of styles you'd prefer for the book, and we could probably help you out some more about how to attack such a behemoth you've got in your mind.

- Magnus

 

[Mladen]

My only concern is that I'm unsure which pieces of the story I should post a sampling of. The whole material is far too large to post, and I doubt many would read the whole of it. Let me explain why this is difficult.

The beginning, definitely. Thats what a publisher will ask to see.
If you aren't able to hook a reader (or us ) with the first 22 pages of your comic, you're not going to keep them around for 1000.

As an aside, regarding your concern about needing to give people all this information about the protagonist, I'd say that its unnecessary at the start of a story. As a reader, we don't need to know anything more (at first) than the broad-strokes: He's fuelled by some past shame, he's from another time period, and he doesn't quite agree with the people he works for but is in some way indebted to them.

Not all of the protagonist's actions need to make sense in the opening chapter as long as they're consistent, interesting, and hint at a deeper explanation which the writer will reveal later. The sooner you get to the meat of your story, the better.

You mentioned digital art for backgrounds etc,
Yes, thats done in manga like Gantz and many others. Its done by a small team of art assistants, its not something which would save ANY time for a single artist. Its only cost effective and time-saving if the work is used across several comics in the same studio, and the comics themselves are popular (and lucrative) enough to warrant the intensified publishing schedule. Its completely inapplicable in the case of an independent comic.

Magnus mentioned a page a week, which is right for a project where the artist won't see a penny until its published. Things change if you're willing (or able) to pay them upfront, in which case that'd speed up the process. Also depends if its going to be in colour. Thats a HUGE decision which will completely affect your costs, your time, your overheads.

 

[cruggero]

I'm looking for realism. Not to say a more abstract style wouldn't suit particular sections of the story. I'd wish for the art to convey emotion in the characters. The eyes, mouth, and skin flexes are important to convey "covert" language. Lighting and shades are key as well. I don't want more dark or more light, just a balance of how the light would truly work; with proper tones at all times.

I referenced a liking towards the way Radical does their art. It's just that sometimes they saturate it with too much darkness and try to convey motion which blurs the image a bit. I'd rather have it be clear.

P.S.
The script is pre-editorial. So what is 600 pages, is estimated given the fact that I write with elaborateness. Some panel's are several paragraphs long. I guess it'd be similar to an Alan Moore style, but I don't the full length of a page and "ramble" at times. Funny as the ramblings are in his scripts, I say things to give the artist a better understanding of the panel's image. So what's the average of 5-6 panels a page, in my script, is more like 3-4 a page. I leave layout to more stringent minds.

 

[Magnus85]

Alright, then we know what you're looking for. Realism, and an inclination towards the Radical style.

For those who don't know:
http://www.reviewbusters.net/images/book/hercules_3_of_5_page_9.jpg

And since it's a collaboration with the artist(s) you are aiming for, I'll repeat what was said on the last page. You're lucky if you can get the artist(s) to make one page a week. So with 12 months of production, you'll have about 50 pages.

I'd definitely look into different ways of publishing it. Webcomic would be an option. 3 - 5 pages a week. Continuous updates. But make sure to have a lot of pages before you go live. This will build readership and if the story is good, that fanbase will help you get a publishing deal.

Another route could be to aim this at Image Comics, but that depends on what kind of story you are telling. And that will require you to split it up into issues a 22 - 24 pages.

The main reason for this, apart from gaining a fanbase (and with Image getting the stuff printed) is that having stuff "out there" will motivate your artist(s).

I'd almost be willing to bet my tongue that you will not be able to have the same artist(s) pulling through what now is a 5 year project, without them seeing any of it "out there" until the whole book is finished. It doesn't just require skill to keep working on such a mountain of a project, it requires immense determination and motivation. And in time, that can only come from feedback from fans/the readership.


- Magnus

 

[cruggero]

Immense determination and motivation, that I have, in infinite quantities. I've considered several companies. A finished script will be sent to Radical, Dark Horse, and Image. The story is strong, I've read many and none too far better. For me, it's dependent on the packaging as I'm currently tinkering with intimate details of the story. Hopefully this first script will be done soon, then I'm moving on to continue revising the second. Oh, joy.

 

[Magnus85]

I'm not talking about your determination and motivation. I'm talking about the artist(s)'.

No point sending any written material to Image. They will only look at a pitch which includes artwork.

I might be a bit off, but Dark Horse will most likely not look at anything that doesn't have a fanbase attached. And not a massive script, for sure.

Radical's aim is to make graphic novels which translate nicely into the typical Hollywood block-buster. If you are to approach them, you can likely forget to send them a script, but you should pitch them your GN and HOW it will translate into a movie. As seeing it's a 600 page book, that's a tough sell.

If you plan to just pitch with a script, I'd say your chances are minimal. All publishers smaller than IDW/Dark Horse/Image wants to see artwork attached, and usually a whole book.

I'm not sure what you should do, really. If you had an agent, that would certainly help gain interest from a company. Meaning that might get them to read the first 50 pages of your script.

Again, I'd say it's very unlikely that any comic publisher will look at just a script these days. If you're not Warren Ellis or the like, that is.

 

[cruggero]

Initially, and for the reasons you'd mentioned, that is why I'd felt Radical to be the appropriate channel for the material. I talk in small portions to and fro with someone in their creative department in a cordial manner via e-mail to keep the lines of discourse open. I've thought that hiring an agent would be the only true method to get this thing up and running.

What I really need is an editor. I've a terrible degree of "inactive" ADD and for the lack of a better explanation, have literally dozens of different things running unchecked through my head at any given time. Focus and, particularly grammar, being not of my strongest suits, I've trouble forming thoughts that are clear to others. Unless they're ADD as well, of course.