Varys: What's his motivation? (Mild ADWD spoilers)

[juleska]

I've been thinking a lot about Varys since the end of ADWD, esp since the epilogue of that volume told us the most we've learned about him since Arya overheard his conversation with Illyrio in AGOT. We've hinted and touched on this subject here and there, but I'd really like to dedicate a thread (assuming there isn't one already?....couldn't find one) to dissecting his thoughts.

It seems that he has a few detractors, even haters here. I think many people started off disliking him and I may be an exception here....but I never disliked Varys at all!

I have felt all along that, while he was a force to be reckoned with and while his methods may not always be clean, I truly think his motivations are.

What are his motivations? I think he really is doing what he believes is best for the realm. Varys has no family, no claim to fortune, nothing really to gain if one person or another wins the iron throne. By contrast, I have *never* trusted Littlefinger (even long before his betrayal of Ned). Littlefinger is motivated by his desire to be legitimized as a high lord, and doesn't care who he destroys to get there. He is motivated by fame and fortune, while Varys stands to get none of that even if he does "win" with his own maneuvers of the game.

I think "for the children" meant just what it said. When he said to Ned that he serves the realm, he meant just exactly that. And when he said to Kevan that he was doing it "for the children", he meant for the long-term peace and prosperity of the realm, to protect the innocence of children yet to come....children whose lives are beind destroyed now by "the Usurper's whelps" the way his own had been destroyed long ago.

 

[The Imp]

I started a Faceless Man thread that had some discussion of Varys.

http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/533049-new-crackpot-theory-the-faceless-men.html


My belief is that we know virtually nothing about Varys that has been independently verified, we know that he has been plotting to bring the Targs back to Westeros, we know that he has a powerfula ally in Illyrio.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

True, Imp, but what is his angle? There has to be an angle. What would he have to gain by returning the Targs? While his goal of bringing peace to Westeros seems to be altruistic, there has to be a purpose.

I think he might actually be an agent of R'hllor.
Remember when his doodads got cut off and some mage threw it in the fire? What if that person was an Other worshipper? I mean, maybe not outright but supposing Melisandre is right and there are only R'hlorr and the Other, this evil demonthing was an aspect of the Other. It only makes sense for Varys to dislike the thing that got his doodas cut off.

If this is the case, then it's no wonder that he is doing everything in his power to get Dany and her dragons to Westeros. Fire is the bane of the Others and the Wights.

Failing that, his name sounds remarkably Targaryenish. Maybe he was a ******* or something.

 

[3EyedCrowsEye]

I think Varys is pulling the long con (per say) and slowly getting the pieces in play to start the chain of events needed to bring back The Targaryens to power. Though there is just so much we don't know of him to be certain.

Littlefinger, am I the only one who actually likes this character?..and there are times I am positive that he is Varys's number 2 in his epic plan.

 

[3EyedCrowsEye]

also I have been thinking if Varys planned the deaths of Joff and Tywin
remember when Robert said the king eats and the hand takes the sh*t
Joff chokes to death whilst eating
Tywin dies taking a sh*t

Varys?

 

[juleska]

Interesting twist, 3Eyed, I hadn't thought of that. Also, you might indeed be the only one who likes Littlefinger. ;-) I mean I enjoy reading about him as a character, but if he were a real person I would cut a W-I-D-E path around him.

 

[Boaz]

My belief is that we know virtually nothing about Varys that has been independently verified, we know that he has been plotting to bring the Targs back to Westeros, we know that he has a powerfula ally in Illyrio.

I agree completely.

Crackpot Theories Alert!!!

I've mentioned this before, but one of my ridiculous ideas is that Varys is descended from the Targaryens. Mayhaps he's a ******* or descended from bastards. Think of the Golden Company... it was founded by a Targaryen ******* and has nursed a lust for returned glory and power for generations. What if Varys is descended from some Targ ******* and wants his imagined birthright?

The combined letters ae in names almost always denote a Targaryen. The exceptions (off the top of my head) are Shae, Aeron Greyjoy, and Rhaegar Frey... and obviously Aeron and Rhaegar were named after Targaryens. We also know that at least one Targaryen shortened her name into a nickname... Daenerys to Dany. Viserys did not use a shortened form since he was trying to exude a regal bearing. But did Viserys have a nickname as a child? What would it have been? Could it have been Verys? What if an alternate spelling of Viserys is Visaerys? Could the nickname for Visaerys be Varys?

Yes, Varys is inquisitive and secretive by nature and profession. Mayhaps he learned of all of the Red Keep's secrets through long years of exploration. Or mayhaps he learned of them from oral tradition passed along by exiled family members.

Other than Illyrio (and Tyrion), I don't know whom Varys is in alliance. He claims to be at odds with Middlefinger... and Baelish claims the same. But both Varys and Baelish wanted Robert gone, the Starks and Lannisters spilling each others' blood, and the realm in disorder.

But does Baelish wish the return of the dragons as Varys seems to secretly desire? All I can say is that Middlefinger's grandfather was given land and title during either the time of Daeron II, Maekar, Jaehaerys, or Aerys II... and that young Petyr (the great grandson of a foreigner, the grandson of a newly made knight, and the son of the poorest house of the Vale) was somehow personally fostered by one of the seven greatest lords of the realm. How was this possible? I think it came by royal favor... I think that mayhaps the name Baelish is a reference to descent from Daeron II's son, Baelor Breakspear... on the wrong side of the sheets of course.

 

[Tywin]

It always struck me as odd that Baelish had been fostered by the Tullies. If his family was 'honored' by a great lord inviting their son to be fostered with them you'd think it would be with the Aryns, not the Tullies.

Back to Varys... do we even know that he's a Eunuch? I don't think that it's a stretch to believe that he's a faceless man.

 

[3EyedCrowsEye]

We know he's a eunuch because of his appearance (no beard/hair, chubby ect..) like every other eunuch such as Strong Belwas and certain slaves and Illyrio's Unsullied..Dany's Unsullied don't look like most eunuchs because of their training but if they got lazy, they'd end up looking like most other eunuchs such as Varys.

 

[The Imp]

We know he's a eunuch because of his appearance (no beard/hair, chubby ect..) like every other eunuch such as Strong Belwas and certain slaves and Illyrio's Unsullied..Dany's Unsullied don't look like most eunuchs because of their training but if they got lazy, they'd end up looking like most other eunuchs such as Varys.

All due respect, this is fiction.

We have no idea if varys is really a enuch. Does he look like a eunuch when he meets with illyrio in the catacombs of the Red Keep, or when he is dressed as a begging brother the time he set up the meeting for Tyrion and Shae? He had facial hair on both of those occasions. We never seen any part of his body in an unclothed state, except for his face and hand. We've heard him weave a wonderful tale about a dark magician using his manly parts in a ritual and then discarding him, but we have no way of knowing if that story has even the slightest shred of truth to it. Illyrio's later tale about about he and varys built their criminal empire seems unbeleiveable to me, as does the likklihood of a street urchin/eunuch rising to become part of the small council of four different kings.

Varys is bald and chubby, and of the two only being chubby slightly suggestive of someone being a eunuch. That's the "proof". Don't look at the pretty assistants that are showing you that the box is empty and doesn't have a trap door. Look at the magician (GRRM) who has masterfully decieved us at many points of the story.

 

[Tywin]

If being chubby is proof of being a Eunuch, then here in Oklahoma two out of every three guys I see on the street would be candidates.

 

[juleska]

I guess I didn't give the Faceless Man theory much thought because I don't remember Varys having so many "disguises", and if he were a FM, he must be pretty terrible for everyone to recognize him all the time.

 

[Pilpel]

Varys is bald and chubby, and of the two only being chubby slightly suggestive of someone being a eunuch. That's the "proof". Don't look at the pretty assistants that are showing you that the box is empty and doesn't have a trap door. Look at the magician (GRRM) who has masterfully decieved us at many points of the story.

Great metaphor!

 

[Tywin]

I guess I didn't give the Faceless Man theory much thought because I don't remember Varys having so many "disguises", and if he were a FM, he must be pretty terrible for everyone to recognize him all the time.

Everyone seemed to recognize "Cat" in Bravos when that was the identity Arya was portraying, "Varys" could just as easily be a persona that this faceless man plays.

 

[The Imp]

I guess I didn't give the Faceless Man theory much thought because I don't remember Varys having so many "disguises", and if he were a FM, he must be pretty terrible for everyone to recognize him all the time.

Varys is "recognized" twice as i remember it. The first time was by Arya, when he was under the Red keep meeting with illyrio. In that case, Arya thought there was something familiar about him, but didn't know it was Varys. The second time was when Shae "recognized" him, but I remember it being by the sound of his voice rather than the way he looked. I'm almost postive he was behind her when she said it was him.

I'm not at all sure that Varys is a FM, but I'll bet dollars to dog biscuits that he has some sort of connection with them.

 

[3EyedCrowsEye]

I just described Eunuchs as they were in the books, and various characters recognizes eunuchs by the exact same examples I just gave. I guess I shouldn't say Varys is a eunuch for certain because we never have actually SEEN his "gash" or penis. But I think I can safely say that Varys is a eunuch.

 

[Tywin]

As far as people recognizing Varys and whether or not that means he could be a faceless man, I think the author might be trying to make a point about people seeing what is really in front of them versus what they or others want them to see.

Remember Syrio Firel teaching Arya to not just "look", but to "see"? The author made a big deal about that in AGOT, mentioning it all the time in the Arya chapters. Similarly, I think he used Shae as an example of someone who had learned to look through all the BS and see what was really in front of her. For Shae I think she explained that if a whore couldn't do that she'd end up dead.

As far as the faceless men are concerned, I don't remember it saying anywhere that their disguises were perfect, and I think the kind man in the temple made a point about using simple disguise techniques instead of "glamours" or spells whenever possible.

 

[The Imp]

I just described Eunuchs as they were in the books, and various characters recognizes eunuchs by the exact same examples I just gave. I guess I shouldn't say Varys is a eunuch for certain because we never have actually SEEN his "gash" or penis. But I think I can safely say that Varys is a eunuch.

I think you have a narrowly focused idea of what a eunuch would look like. The Unsullied are eunuchs, yet I guarantee that they are rock solid without an ounce of flab or excess fat. The one characteristic that they might have, which isn't actually described in any of the books would be an abnormally high voice If you look at the roles of eunuchs throughout history (real world history) you'll see that they have often been used as body guards (often in harems) and military people. A eunuch COULD be chubby and effeminate, but they aren't so by definition.

As for Varys, we have seen him play different roles to suit his purpose at the time. Why should we assume that the role of Varys isn't as much of an act as is the "soldier" who met with both Ned and Illyrio, or the begging brother who took Tyrion to visit Shae? Of all the people in all of the books, i find Littlefinger and Varys to be equally untrustworthy, and I wouldn't believe a word that either one of them said to me without independent verification.

 

[HareBrain]

I think you have a narrowly focused idea of what a eunuch would look like. The Unsullied are eunuchs, yet I guarantee that they are rock solid without an ounce of flab or excess fat. The one characteristic that they might have, which isn't actually described in any of the books would be an abnormally high voice If you look at the roles of eunuchs throughout history (real world history) you'll see that they have often been used as body guards (often in harems) and military people. A eunuch COULD be chubby and effeminate, but they aren't so by definition.

Guards in harems, yes (because uncastrated males wouldn't be allowed) but I'd be surprised if they were otherwise used as soldiers, and I don't remember coming across a reference to it myself -- the lack of testosterone would not only reduce aggression, but inhibit the building of muscle.

If you do know where they were used as battlefield warriors in our world, I'd be interested to know.

 

[The Imp]

Guards in harems, yes (because uncastrated males wouldn't be allowed) but I'd be surprised if they were otherwise used as soldiers, and I don't remember coming across a reference to it myself -- the lack of testosterone would not only reduce aggression, but inhibit the building of muscle.

If you do know where they were used as battlefield warriors in our world, I'd be interested to know.

They're used as battlefiled warriors in aSoIaF- the unsullied. Does a real world example matter?

if it does, then refer to this

http://www.beijingmadeeasy.com/beijing-history/chinese-eunuchs

(this is the relevant paragraph)
According to legend, castration has often been used to improve the effectiveness of soldiers. Apparently, rulers would sometimes remove the testicles of young men in order to promote growth and build himself an army of giants. Alternatively, the king would remove the men’s penises but leave their testicles intact. This would cause them such enormous sexual frustration that they would become exceedingly violent and aggressive – perfect on the battlefield.

or this

http://dailycaller.com/2010/06/21/india-to-use-eunuch-soldiers-to-secure-border-with-china/ )entire article)

There are other examples if you're interested, but again just use The unsullied as the best example.